Charlotte Dujardin

MissAdventure

Dujardin had ruined her own career.

Not the person who filmed her.

I don't disagree with that at all. However, let's say that the filmed incident was not a one-off and she had been using those methods routinely - then there is an argument to be made that by not coming forward and reporting it at the time, the person who filmed her (or the onlookers) may have allowed that abuse to continue for four years. Had they reported it at the time, it could have been stopped then.

MissAdventure

Dujardin had ruined her own career.

Not the person who filmed her.

Exactly
Lost her lottery funding, kicked out by the charity she promoted, said goodbye to her almost guaranteed Damehood.
That sends a strong message to the animal abusers, and all those who defend them.

If you genuinely believe that a horse can be trained to skip and dance without any pressure, well I can't agree
We will have to agree to disagree too. How do you think horses are trained for 'normal' riding? It is very much a partnership between the horse and rider - and dressage is just an extension of that.

Dujardin had ruined her own career.

Not the person who filmed her.

What about things like dog obedience classes? Don't people regard that as a partnership between human and animal?
I started to think about that yesterday, MaizieD, and came to the conclusion that most dog training is based on reward, (usually of the edible type!) At class my dogs appear to enjoy weaving between the posts, jumping over hurdles, even doing a bit of dancing to music. If they didn't they would soon lie down and refuse to budge. At that point we wouldn't use any force.
I can see what posters mean about having a relationship with your animal.

If you genuinely believe that a horse can be trained to skip and dance without any pressure, well I can't agree

It's not 'skipping and dancing' and it doesn't require any 'pressure'.

So we'll have to disagree.

P.S I'm aware of cruelty in the dressage world, Rolkur was an utter disgrace) but it's not a topic that would get much traction on Gransnet, is it? It's only getting aired here now because a famous Brit is involved.

It goes back much further than the Spanish Riding School, Dinahmo. It concerned the training of horses to be used in battle. The ancient Greek, Xenophon, was a known early exponent. It used the natural movements of a horse, performed on command, to turn the horse into an extra 'weapon' on the battlefield.

Horses have to be trained to accept a rider and to understand what the rider is asking them to do in order to be ridden at all, and to be a safe ride.

Dressage is no more 'entertainment' than a football match. People do it at all levels, just a as people play football at all levels. Where does it stop being the exercise of skills and the desire to improve skills and become 'entertainment'?

If people don't approve of horses being ridden it's entirely up to them.

As it is, a great many people find it a challenging and absorbing hobby. Just because the skills dressage are training to enhance are obsolete it doesn't follow that it shouldn't happen. What about things like dog obedience classes? Don't people regard that as a partnership between human and animal? Because that's certainly how most riders consider their relationship with their horse or horses...

Charlotte's sponsers are dropping her as we type. I think they will know far more than we do about this abuse.

There is a very good reason why this footage has come out now. Because for years and years people have tried to point out the animal abuse and they're ignored.

A Danish documentary was filmed. Helgstrand Dressage Abuse documentary. Showing what happens. Did anyone pay attention to this? No. There is numerous footage that isn't paid attention to.

I am thrilled that, at last, this cruel practice is being seen. It needs to change.

If you genuinely believe that a horse can be trained to skip and dance without any pressure, well I can't agree

I'm not for one minute denying that some - especially at the highest levels of dressage - use questionable methods in training, and if this incident shines a spotlight on those and helps to eradicate them, that can only be a good thing. The Danish dressage team, for instance were heavily criticised for using the Rollkur method, in which the horse's neck is locked into a very tight angle, and that has now been banned in many places.
But dressage itself dates back way before the Spanish Riding School - to Greek times, in fact. As I've said numerous times on this and the other thread, you can train a horse to do dressage without using any cruel methods, just as you would train a horse to response to the rider's other commands. It's hard to explain, but when you form a bond with a horse and feel it responding to the very slightest of touches and movements, it's an amazing feeling - you almost feel as if you've become one with the animal. And I repeat, I did dressage at Pony Club level as a child, as did my daughter, and my DiL now competes with one of her horses and none of us ever used a whip as part of the training.

The art of dressage goes back hundreds of years to the Spanish Riding School in Vienna which apparently began in the 16thC. At that time little thought was given to animal welfare. Times have changed but the training methods for this sport have probably not.

IMO training an animal to such a degree has no purpose other than for entertainment is wrong. Perhaps those who support the sport could explain the benefits.

merlotgran

I am in no way defending Dujardin’s training methods but to me the real villain of the piece is the person who filmed the event and sat on it for four years knowing that releasing it just before the Paris olympics would have the most impact.

If they really cared about horse welfare they would have reported Charlotte immediately so an investigation could take place and the correct measures taken to improve training methods.

What they have done is destroy a career and inflict maximum damage on equine sport and the dedicated people involved. It will have far reaching consequences.

This should have been dealt with by a proper investigation at the time.

Absolutely. the real villain of the piece is the person who filmed the event and sat on it for four years knowing that releasing it just before the Paris olympics would have the most impact.

The person speaking about the video was Dutch. I wonder if their team has hopes of medals? That is the only reason I can see to hold on to the tape for so long but I have no knowledge of the sport ( if it can be so described).

BlueBelle

I cannot stand horse racing, dog racing or any of the dreadful regimes that are around animals and sport
I m not horse mad, never been near one to be honest, never been near a bull but can’t abide the thought of bullfighting either, I m not dog mad but can’t stand seeing them made to stand on their hind legs or ‘ dance’ it’s not entertainment it’s cruelty

I saw these clips and I would love to slice that whip round her legs and see if she dances. I m glad she s been brought to task as for her saying that wasn’t her normal behaviour looked like she was very used to doing it the way she handled that whip I wish the horse had kicked her back

Completely agree I hope she is never allowed to compete again. Disgusting woman. I saw that video and I felt sick. Absolutely horrible.

I agree with you, merlotgran @ 9.16

I have watched that video a couple of times now and the first thing I noted was that it is very poor quality. It is impossible at times to see whether or not the whiplash actually connected with the horse.

A lunge whip is not a long rigid 'rod', it is only rigid for half its length, the remainder is a thin 'thong', that's the bit that is nearest the horse. The theory behind the 'thong' is, I understand, that it appears to be snakelike to the horse and the horse will naturally try to evade a snake. When in use, the thong simulates a snake movement to encourage the horse to move forward away from it. I'd stress that it is not usual to lash the horse with the thong, though it might be used to gently (and I mean gently) flick the horse in the area of its quarters (rear end) to ask for a bit more active forward movement. In the same way that a schooling whip is used by a mounted rider. It's not a 'hit' it's a tap to reinforce the leg aid..

It is difficult to tell from the video just how often the thong connected with the horse's legs because the quality is so poor. That it certainly did sometimes, and that it was intended as more than a gentle flick, is evident from the vigour with which it was used, but talk of the horse being 'hit 24 times in a minute' looks very much like hyperbole to me as it's hard to tell which efforts connected and which didn't, or how severe the connection was when it happened.

I'm not trying to excuse what Du Jardin did, it looked completely pointless to me. I think it might have been to try to promote more 'activity' in the hind legs but there are other ways to achieve this.

I think that the FEI won't come down as hard on Du Jardin as you lot have.

As to the merits of wanting to train a horse to a high degree of fitness and responsiveness, or even of riding horses at all, it's a matter of opinion. If people didn't ride or drive them they would barely exist...

I am in no way defending Dujardin’s training methods but to me the real villain of the piece is the person who filmed the event and sat on it for four years knowing that releasing it just before the Paris olympics would have the most impact.

If they really cared about horse welfare they would have reported Charlotte immediately so an investigation could take place and the correct measures taken to improve training methods.

What they have done is destroy a career and inflict maximum damage on equine sport and the dedicated people involved. It will have far reaching consequences.

This should have been dealt with by a proper investigation at the time.

Why trained a horse to prance ? the rider gets applause and medals

It’s disgusting but, make no mistake, it’s common place in sports and activities involving animals. The face and persona they present to the public is never an accurate representation of the individual concerned.

I think it's also important to point out that you can be an expert in a particular discipline - whether that is riding, dancing, football, gymnastics, whatever - but that does not mean you will necessarily make a good coach or teacher. Some people are just naturally very good at something, but unable to teach those skills to others.

Good description MissI. I never trained horses but I learned how to use my legs and bottom to get a riding school horse to yield to my leg. I wasn’t a quick learn on this but once I;d given the right signals, my horse moved beautifully. As you say, it’s about small movements, unseen by most observers.

The discussion on this on the Olympics thread is interesting. Many good contributions from posters who have life long involvement with horses, including dressage.
Miss Interpreted is correct, it’s perfectly possible to train horses without cruelty.

I watched half the video but turned it off because I was watching abuse of a horse. She used a lunging whip to hit the horse, repeatedly, on his back legs. The horse was learning nothing, other than to fear and mistrust people. The sound picked up someone laughing as the horse reacted with fear to the pain.
I don’t believe this was ‘an error of judgement’. It certainly can’t have been a one off. She was training a horse and its rider. I expect her career is over.

I rode horses, as did my children. Fantastic animals.

Oreo

That’s interesting, tell us how it’s done? Especially the hopping about.

In the same way that a rider works with their horse to respond to cues, body movement, balance and so on. Any rider learns first how to take their horse from a walk to a trot, then a canter, then a gallop and so on. You learn how to ride in a straight line, half-circles, circles and other movements. It's all about very small movements, adjusting the pressure from your legs, your seat etc. It's hard to explain and to the casual observer, it may seem like the rider is just sitting there - but there's a lot going on between the horse and rider.

That’s interesting, tell us how it’s done? Especially the hopping about.

I've said this on the other thread, but I'll repeat it here. It is perfectly possible to train a horse to do dressage without the use of whips or other cruel methods. If you've only ever seen dressage on tv, where the routines are carried out to music, then I can understand why you may think that, but there are hundreds of people taking part in dressage at a much lower level, without music. I did dressage at Pony Club level as a child, as did my daughter and my DiL currently takes part in it with one of her horses, and I can assure you that at no time were any whips involved.

Agree, dressage is awful