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Charlotte Dujardin

(273 Posts)
Esmay Wed 24-Jul-24 12:08:07

Did anyone read the allegations against Charlotte Dujardin today ?
I've watched and admired her so many times .
I'm shocked and disappointed by her cruelty .

nightowl Sun 28-Jul-24 14:58:39

Freshair I agree about horse people having a bullying air. They often like to bully people as well. Livery yards have to be the most awful places on earth.

nightowl Sun 28-Jul-24 14:55:59

I saw that too Fleurpepper. Ruth Fisher is one of the people I admire greatly and follow on Facebook. I’ve met her and she is just as lovely and insightful in person. Now she is someone who actually listens to horses.

Freshair Sun 28-Jul-24 13:28:04

Fleurpepper, what an insightful lady Ruth is. I've never trusted the horse fraternity, I've seen and heard things that horsey people do and there's always an underlying bullying nature about them forcing the horse to submit in the quest for the humans ultimate achievement. It's sickening really.

choughdancer Sun 28-Jul-24 13:12:57

MissAdventure

That is the absolutely perfect speech! 👍

I agree!

MissAdventure Sun 28-Jul-24 12:58:08

That is the absolutely perfect speech! 👍

Fleurpepper Sun 28-Jul-24 12:48:46

Me neither MissAdventure. But Roth Fisher, is a horse specialist with tons of experience, and this is what she says. Makes sense to me

''There is so much being written about recent events and I've been watching and mulling it over for a few days.
What I'm seeing is either, "utter horror and surprise. Support in a warped way that suggests we look at how bad they are though over there, in whatever other sport they choose, and this wasn't as bad as that.
Seen worse on livery yards. Least the horses aren't fat and have laminitis.
Everyone makes mistakes and others throwing Charlotte under the bus to divert attention.. "

What she did was very wrong and not for a second do I think it's a one off but this post isn't aimed at her, but all of us..

We have to stop turning a blind eye , to stop handing over responsibility to people who's standing and status do not mean they know better than us when it comes to horse welfare.

How about we all look at what is going on all around us. On the livery yards we are on. At the trainers and professionals we use and start to be your horses advocate. You are their guardian and what ever level you are riding at, we should always question any one who we ask for help with them.

On a daily basis I hear of how horses are "lazy" "taking the p*ss" "mareish" "opinionated" " sharp" "spooky"etc etc with no thought for the why, just a negative consequence for the horse.

It's endemic.

The way we view horses has to start to be different from ground level, to make changes all the way up to the top. The FEI routinely turn a blind eye. The photos of showjumpers and dressage horses in Paris already coming out show that.
So the tide needs to change around us and to push back at those who should know better and choose not to see.
Not to idolise them.
To stop and really look at the photos of them, see the blue tongues the pain expressions, the poor muscling , the lameness,the learned helplessness..
To speak up..

Winning medals should not deserve the adoration through blinkers that human nature appears to think it does. But also niether should being a professional at any level, mean they know better than you.

Being paid, so therefore professional, does not mean they know better. No one is above question and your horses is the only expert and their opinion the only one that matters.. they all communicate, it's our job to learn to "listen" to them.

Whether it's someone at Olympic level or teaching on the local livery yard, everyone should be held accountable.

It's not ok to strap the mouth up tighter with nosebands as the horses dare to express their discomfort.
To use stronger bits to make us feel safe when the bit is causing your horse pain.
To teach its normal for horses to take 15 mins plus to "submit" every time we ride.
For trainers to make people who do question, feel like they are just soft and the reason their horse is a "t"at". That's human bullying as well as equine..
To teach kids their ponies are lazy and need a smack, or to get them "on the bit" by seesawing on their mouths. That applies to adults too..
To ride horses behind the vertical as the dressage judges keep saying "not round enough"..
To accept the amount of broken horses, physically and mentally, around us because of what humans have done..
To accept horses needing rehab at only 5 years old when should just be starting their ridden lives,not already be broken from it..
For livery yard culture of bullying anyone who is different and doesn't follow the mainstream..
I could go on..

Being a competitive rider/professional does not mean they know better, or their care for their horses is superior.
It means the judges somewhere told them they are doing it right, and rewarded it with prizes. Let's stop putting our horses wellbeing in the hands of someone sat in a judges box..

Nor does the fact a person has been riding from more years than you've been on the planet and you only riding a few, mean your opinion and feeling on a situation must be wrong.. time spent with or money earnt from horses,does not mean the have knowledge that's ethical and horse centred..

We can compete and keep our horses at the top of our priority, but we have to accept the judges may mark this down. I have and I know how frustrating this is but no one will ever make me ride or train people differently to gain more marks, if it's not prioritising the horses physical and mental state.
I have met and worked with wonderfully kind top competitive riders, who's horses wellbeing is an absolute priority and don't use aversive methods, but they are constantly questioning and evolving to be better for their horses.

There are judges out there that see good horse focussed training, but when what's rewarded at high level is seen as gold standard it's hard to go against the tide..

It's time for change and I even thank that whistleblower for showing the video to the press.
I don't care if it's sour grapes, the victim feeling they couldn't share before, someone trying to wipe out the competition, or whatever else theory people are coming up with.

It's not where our energy should now be. In-fighting whilst the public watch on and see nothing change.. It's not equestrians who will be behind the push for the banning of horse sports, but it'll happen while the collective focus is on falling out with each other and not accepting responsibility and making changes .

Our energies should be on the sad reality that this is going on, everywhere and we cannot carry on choosing not to see/ speak up.
How we are going to show the public this isn't what we do if we really love horses and that money and medals are never worth more than them..

I'm hoping what's in the news will be a positive, as we needed a catalyst for change. I'm hoping this is going to open peoples eyes and also give them confidence to question "professionals".
I'm hoping the people who always apologise to me as they are "only happy hackers" but who's horses are happy and not sore, stop apologising..

In hope...

Ruth

MissAdventure Sun 28-Jul-24 12:15:14

I know nothing about horses, as has been pointed out, but i understood dressage to be a demonstration of the relationship and trust, and synergy between horse and rider.
It makes a mockery of that idea if the animals are subjected to cruelty.

Boz Sun 28-Jul-24 12:10:36

MissAdventure

I think there is huge pressure for sports to be performed better, faster, more perfectly with every passing year, but i suppose athletes need to consider if they are still behaving in acceptable ways to achieve these heights.

Yes. I looks like SCD has similar problems; overdoing the training procedure!

MissAdventure Sun 28-Jul-24 12:08:38

I think there is huge pressure for sports to be performed better, faster, more perfectly with every passing year, but i suppose athletes need to consider if they are still behaving in acceptable ways to achieve these heights.

Boz Sun 28-Jul-24 11:49:05

People who train animals with cruelty are control freaks. They cannot bear that edge of unpredictability with animals so have to master the animals.
I hate all animal cruelty and have not an ounce of compassion for such people and I hope this lady is prosecuted by the RSPCA.

MissAdventure Sun 28-Jul-24 11:42:31

It seems it's not really a slur against the riders, but it obviously doesn't look good in shows, so withdrawing them is standard procedure.

Should I leave the thread now? 🤭

BlueBelle Sun 28-Jul-24 11:38:05

It’s funny how people leave the thread after they ve ‘said their piece’ nothing like control over a conversation !

I hadn’t heard that before MissA so she already had a question mark over her training methods ?

MissAdventure Sun 28-Jul-24 11:18:10

She was withdrawn from the 2019 European dressage as her horse had blood on it's flanks.

Anniebach Sun 28-Jul-24 10:55:27

Agree =BlueBell*. She struck the horse, she has withdrawn

BlueBelle Sun 28-Jul-24 10:45:41

No anniebach one is enough and one is too many I m afraid I will never be convinced that was the first time or would have been the last It seemed to come second nature to her and she was very comfortable with it
I m not a horsey person and you horse people are right I know diddly squit but I do know cruelty when I see it

Anniebach Sun 28-Jul-24 10:15:40

Need there be several acts of cruelty?

foxie48 Sun 28-Jul-24 10:03:42

There is no evidence that CDJ has used cruelty or underhand methods to train her horses. The video is the only one that has come to light and if there are more I'm sure they will come to light. I've been to the yard where she keeps her horses, there are always people around, regular yard visits from all sorts of equestrian groups, owners or people having lessons either with Charlotte or Carl or Alan Davies. There's a huge indoor arena with a viewing area and there's also an outside arena. At competitions, it's normal to have lots of people standing around outside the warm up arena even when it's a fairly low level competition and there are people taking videos with the intention of exposing any training practices which infringe the rules. As I and many who have contributed to this thread have said, the use of the whip in the video was absolutely to be condemned, no question about it but it is not evidence that this is how she normally trains her horses or that the majority of people train their horses like that because they don't. If there's more evidence of wrongdoing I'll change my mind but for now I accept what she has said about the video.
With regard to "rollkur" this was an issue identified many years ago which was being used by some European riders. It has been roundly condemned for many years as it is most definitely cruel. Many horses will take themselve "deep" but there's a huge difference between rollkur (hyperflexion) and deep and round, unfortunately lots of people don't know the difference and will shout "rollkur" when it is nothing of the sort. There's also a difference to the horses being "behind the vertical" (BTV) which to my mind is partly about the conformation of the modern dressage horse but that's far too technical to discuss here.
The eventing cross country is on now. Beautiful course and a lovely day in Versailles. Some, of course, will say the horses are forced to jump but having owned a few eventers over the years (DD competed quite seriously at one time) I can assure you, if a horse doesn't want to jump they will tell you in no uncertain manner and no one wants to ride at speed into solid fences with a reluctant horse! I've said my piece and am now leaving this thread.

choughdancer Sun 28-Jul-24 09:02:05

I didn't express myself very well! What I would like is to take the temptation to abuse out of the equation, not stop everyone riding.

In sports that involve big money (e.g. horse racing), and high status (e.g. Olympic medals), there will always be a minority of people who use underhand means to achieve their goals.

I would like these high reward sports to stop.

MissAdventure Sat 27-Jul-24 21:11:14

I just used the first info I came across, so, possibly it isn't verifiable.

Just wanted to show that the RSPCA can still be involved in the case, if there was one.

Anniebach Sat 27-Jul-24 21:07:42

25 times in one minute !

MissAdventure Sat 27-Jul-24 20:41:09

Dujardin has pulled out of the Paris Olympics after a clip showed her beating the horse 25 times in one minute with a long whip. The video was passed to the FEI, the governing body of horse sports including dressage. Now the RSPCA has said it is "ready to provide any support" to the authorities probing the footage.

Freshair Sat 27-Jul-24 20:11:16

That needs to change

LittleToothill Sat 27-Jul-24 19:29:47

I’ve had horses for over 40 years and my daughter still does dressage with a horse we bred & works as a professional groom . We’ve followed Charlottes career for years and also seen her perform . I was in awe of her skill and couldn’t believe the press report until I too had seen the video . Using a schooling whip and lunge whip ( the long one ) is very common in training horses but not to use it as she did . It’s also clear this wasn’t an isolated exercise as suggested . I’m devastated about the impact this will have on the Equestrian world but I do question what the motive if behind the whistle blower waiting 4 years to release the video and just before the Olympics . I hope our other highly skilled riders will not be tarnished by this episode . Watching dressage is amazing and takes hours of patience not punishment

MayBee70 Sat 27-Jul-24 19:25:58

You can cause suffering to a horse or pony by putting it in a field and doing nothing with it. They’re intelligent animals. They enjoy fresh challenges. Many retired racehorses do dressage or in hand showing. Some take to dressage, some don’t. Leave a horse in a field and it can get kicked by another horse. Get colic (to me the worst thing that can happen to any horse sad or grass sickness if the grass is too rich and it gets fat).Laminitis.Rain scald if it hasn’t got a shelter or a rug. If it’s a thoroughbred it will probably need stabling every night.Then there’s the problem of children growing. Get your child a pony and unless you can afford to keep several horses and ponies they will need a bigger one at some point.Then, of course, you have to poo pick their fields. All the time.Year in year out. I reckon that’s what caused my arthritis. If people think that sporting horses lead horrible lives just watch the documentary COW and realise what a miserable existence cows have.

MissInterpreted Sat 27-Jul-24 19:19:41

Freshair

Animal Welfare Act 2006 - covers physical violence against an animal. There has been nothing reported that the police are taking action given the evidence, CJD's admission etc. This is ny point

I believe any prosecution under that Act would have to be brought within three years of the date of the alleged offence.