Arranged marriage

They have presumably been brought up within a culture of arranged marriages which would predispose them (a bit at least) to acceptance. I wouldn't have wanted my parents to arrange anything like that for me and I wouldn't have wanted to arrange anything for my daughters.

I think the problem with the culture of arranged marriages arises when the parties are not happy with the arrangements. Their choices are limited if the parents insist on the arrangement.

I think my vote will always go for doing it oneself or, expressed in a different way, for thinking parents should accept that their kids grow up and let them make their own choices. OK so you might get it wrong but so does half the rest of the world. That's life.

I have two friends whose marriages were arranged. Both are British born and their parents lived in Pakistan until the 60s. One friend says she has been brought up in a culture where attachment and bonding are seen as a bi-product of a good marriage and she doesn't really accept the concept of love. She is happy and has three children, whose marriages won't be arranged. She says her parents would have given her another choice if she had been very unhappy about their choice of son-in-law. The other friend says it's a good job she loves her husband, because her parents gave her no choice - they sent her to Lahore to be introduced to her prospective husband and relatives, and she was married within a month, at the age of 16. She has two children. Both are professional women with higher degrees, they dress in western clothes, go to the mosque and they regard themselves as equal heads of the household with their husbands.

Who's to say which culture has got it right? I wouldn't want to have had a marriage arranged for me, and my marriage lasted 15 years but ended in divorce. I have noticed that my friends don't spend too much time with their husbands, who work very long hours and are busy outside work with community responsibilities. Perhaps they have found a balance that works well for them.

A woman who is educated and independent might accept an arranged marriage and be perfectly happy, but what about the very young girls who are married to much older men, often relatives, for family reasons or to get a visa for someone. We are talking about the most intimate of relationships and some women get to see their husbands only days before they have to sleep with them.
If the woman is given a free choice of several possible husbands, I suppose it is not much different from using a dating agency - it is the element of compulsion I find abhorrent.
In Morocco, a 16 year old girl has been forced to marry her rapist to save the family's 'honour'. In too many cultures, women are still treated as commodities to be traded by men. I am sick of hearing that I should respect all cultures equally - some are not worthy of respect.

In my last house the couple that lived next door were products of arranged marriage, the husband British born and the wife Indian born. The wedding was arranged he went over for the wedding and brought her home, her first memory of England was being taken for fish and chips she was appalled by this favourite British meal.

They have 2 boys and appeared very happy, she ran the household and stayed at home with the children while he went out to work, as they years went on she grew more independent but she always bowed to him.

But added into the mix his Mother also lived with them and I think she was the head of the household.

He appeared to have great respect for his wife and they made a good couple but I would not say they loved each other and she said that was by far the better way in a marriage than to have the heart making decisions.

Personally I would have hated that choice being made by my Parents, heaven forbid the choice that would have been made, the mind boggles.

I read in the news a couple of days ago that a young girl being forced to marry her rapist had killed herself. I wonder if this is the same story being misreported as usual?

Yes, I agree with you Greatnan - there is a world of difference between young girls being exploited and those being allowed to choose.

Before I retired, I was involved in a case where a mother had sent her two daughters, 12 and 14, over to Pakistan to be married off. They disappeared from school and the head teacher contacted the police. The girls returned after a month, both 'married' and their husbands still in Pakistan arranging to travel over here. The girls were interviewed at the Rape Crisis Centre and placed with foster parents, then the mother was prosecuted and given a 2 year sentence for conspiracy to allow her children to be sexually abused. Her younger children had to live with their auntie and were given no explanation as to where their mother was, nor were they allowed to see her, as she was judged to be likely to groom them for sexual abuse. No mention was made of their father throughout all this - he just disappeared!

That story shows what it's really about: the supposed parental "ownership" of children. It's easy to justify what works, even if people are essentially coerced, but there is no justification for the kind of abuse that carol's story and greatnan's have highlighted. It may not matter (note the word 'may') if marriage is about love or 'just' a social structure for raising kids, but forcing people into relationships is wrong in my book. I agree with greatnan that not all cultures are equal. Some practices are not acceptable however traditional they might be. Or, to put it another way, some attitudes are simply less civilised than others.

I shall now duck out of firing range.

bagitha

Carol - why do you assume this case was misreported? Yes, she did take rat poison rather than be raped by him in marriage. It has been reported in many different papers and news services - I usually google any report before I quote it.

It can work obviously! But, I've been to an Indian wedding in India. It was obviously a middle class wedding - he was an officer in the Navy. We were invited by the bride's uncle to come and see her - she was the most beautiful girl but one of the saddest I have met. Our feelings didn't change during the ceremony....he looked bored and she looked very unhappy! But sometimes they do grow close....really just the luck of the draw! I have always thought background important because values may be much the same...standards too maybe. But, I don't think it's much fun - takes away the thrill of the chase, the heartbreak that everyone should experience in a lifetime and must be only for the insecure and unimaginative amongst us who believe anyone will do at the end of the day!!!

There is a difference - though the line is very fine - between arranged marriage and forced marriage.

Perhaps the best compromise in a culture that expects arranged marriages is for the parents to get a matchmaker, who arranges for the couple to meet, but either can say 'no' without any comeback. That way the parents have input, but there is no coercion.

I met my own husband through the YHA. So many of us did, that we reckoned it no longer stood for Youth Hostels Assoc, but for Your Husband Assured. What was assured, was that by being members, we had plenty in common.

Yes, i have read so much at various times about those poor young lasses who get lumbered with some man they've never met, often too old for them. I can't imagine the horror of their wedding night.

In a culture where marriage is essentially about producing offspring and continuing the family line, and where girls were expected to start reproducing almost as soon as they were physically able to, arranged marriages do make 'sense' because the people in control are the older adults. The girls are still just that — girls, and probably not old enough, educated enough, or experienced enough to arrange their own lives. That is the crux: arranged marriages keep the older generation in control and give less scope for the younger generation to change old customs by going about it in a different way. In many ways, we've seen it all before in this country. Just think of Jane Austen's novels. It wasn't perhaps quite so prevalent, but the older generation control thing was still there.

I prefer the "power to all our friends" idea and so am not in favour of arranged marriages. For me the ideal is for young people to be allowed to grow up well-educated and able to make their own life decisions in their own time.

I think this discussion links well with the one about the proposed new marriage laws. The definition of marriage is changing in most people's eyes. It is no longer seen as being just about procreation. The power balance is changing too.

Greatnan I mention the misreporting query because you talked about the girl being forced to marry her rapist, and I read she had killed herself in order not to marry him, hence the suspicion that one of the papers had misreported. Hope that clarifies it.

I see, but I don't think the order in which events happened really changes anything, does it? Women/girls who report rape can be forced to marry their rapist under their penal code. One woman was imprisoned for being raped. She was sentenced for something like 'immoral behaviour'.

An arranged marriage means just that because if the couple do not like each other they do not marry so they have absolutely as much control over who they marry as anyone else from a culture that doesnt have a formal system for bringing people together. Anything else is forced marriage.

Anyway there are plenty of arranged marriages in western society, it is just that it is more informal. I can remember arranging a social event to introduce my sister to a friend because I thought they had a lot in common and would be well suited. In my case they got on well and became good friends but nothing else. I have other friends who married people they were introduced to through friends who thought they might get on.

If a potential bride and groom come from a culture, and it doesnt have to be asian, where to consult their parents or a marriage broker when looking for a marriage partner is normal why not. It is not as if the cultures who reject this way of meeting someone, prefering random comings together produce a spectacularly high rate of marriage successes.

I certainly don't object to that kind of 'arrangement'. Only meeting your potential mate a few days before being expected to marry them and not having a real choice even if there is one in theory is a bit different. Just introducing people is hardly 'arranging' really. There is no pressure with that kind of arrangement but in some cultures where actual marriages are arranged there is a great deal of cultural and family pressure and I doubt if some of the people being arranged actually feel they have an opt out clause.

Greatnan I wasn't challenging anything about the issue, just commenting that I had read a story that was like the one you described, that it looked like the publication I had read had got the story a bit out of kilter. One publication says she didn't get married but killed herself, and the others seem to say she did marry him under duress. Did she kill herself? I was confused by what I read after seeing your description.

A friend of mine married the person her parents had arranged for her. She left him after being married for only two months. She was one of those unenviable people caught between two cultures. Raised by Ugandan Asian parents (ejected by Amin) in Britain, with a British university education behind her. She couldn't hack all the expectations other people had of her. Half of her wanted to please her Indian roots; half of her wanted to be a modern Brit. The divorce caused a lot of ill feeling in her family.

Bagitha, but that is a forced marriage, force is force whether physical or emotional. I had a friend, european in origin, who knew her marriage was a mistake before it happened but felt emotionally pushed into it because her parents had invested so much of themselves and their money into it, she hadnt the courage to walk away. The marriage lasted a year.

Carol, I understood that he was taken to court for the rape but would be released if he married her. He agreed to, her family (not her) agreed to the marriage and the victim was forced into the marriage. He husband was violent and five months later she klilled herself. It was all about family 'honour' and providing the poor unfortunate victim married her attacker 'honour' was saved.

I agree, flickety, but my friend would still have called it an 'arranged' marriage and maintained that there was no force involved. If anyone had suggested she was being forced into it she would have bitten their heads off for attacking her family's culture.

But that doesnt mean she is right. Any disinteersted observer would say that that was a forced marriage.

My lodgers are Indian, but brought up in a very westernised lifestyle. They're both in their mid twenties and have degrees, they're catholics and were educated in private schools where all lessons were conducted in English. They both had the power of veto over the marriage and there would have been no comeback from their families if either had rejected the other. They were undoubtedly very happy and definitely positive about the 'arrangement'.
I agree that a forced marriage is an abuse and is very different to an arranged marriage, which is what I meant by the original question. It occurred to me to ask because when I first got together with my husband it was a real surprise to me (he'd been a young friend, nothing more), but my close friends were delighted and said they had already decided ages before that we were a perfectly suited couple.

Grannyactivist, I had a similar experience, DH and I got engaged after a brief courtship, having known each other for six years. The only people surprised by the engagement were the participants, all our friends said it had been waiting for it to happen for years.

Yes, flickety. What I mean is that when people use the term arranged marriage, they often mean forced marriage. I would call my friend's marriage forced as well, forced by the culture of arranged marriages.