Families - who'd have 'em!

Oh dear. A sad situation but saddest for them. Maybe you should just carry on as normal. If you usually ask the DCs and GCs round then let them come. What happens if you don't tiptoe round their sensitivities? Act normal. If that means talking about the other members of your family (which the DGCs are) then do it. What do you have to lose other than 24 hours of awkwardness?

Does your niece have the same attitude mishap? You say she and her OH have made a life for themselves without DCs, does that include normal contact with the wider family.
I do think it's a sad way for your sibling to behave, and a selfish one. We all have grief and loss to contend with at points in our lives, but most people don't deal with it by making others feel uncomfortable.
Is jealousy at the heart of it? Does it go back further than when it became apparent that your niece couldn't have children, do you think perhaps?

Thanks for your insights Jane.

Normal means that sometimes the children and GC are here, and one DD has been in touch asking if they can come round so that they can see their relatives - but she would have to bring the children, so I feel I have to say no to that.

It seems doubly sad that they will have no GC and also that they have put up a wall between themselves and easy communication with their siblings.

We will be hard put not to mention the children and GC as we are so involved with them. More tongue-biting - ouch!

It is all rather difficult as we have so little in common with them and have to steer clear of politics with a single-minded determination or will get treated to a diatribe on the blooming immigrants taking all our jobs! - and the rest of it.

Just seen the second message so I should have said thank you Janes!

I do not really know whether there is anything more behind this - certainly there is jealousy, and that is not inappropriate, but when it stands in the way of normal conversation, then that seems a shame.

I have very little contact with their child as we live so far away from each other.

My sibling and spouse are a bit touchy about a lot of things - they are fiendishly efficient about birthdays etc. and woe betide me if I am a bit late with a card or send an unsuitable present! - why is it that it is always their cards that I forget? - Sod's Law I guess!

Do they ignore everyone else with kids too? Their friends with kids? That would seem an unlikely, not to say, hard thing to do?

Surely they realize they are not the only ones in this situation? We have friends who lost their son when he was in his early twenties and their daughter and partner have never wanted children. We saw our friends at a village 'do' not long ago and they were having fun and making a fuss of their great niece and nephews. I wouldn't mind betting there's a lot of sadness in their hearts but giving in to it would probably add to the burden.

It's a shame they can't make the most of what they have and not allow their envy to blight their relationship with you.

It is OTT , when they are out and about do they carefully avert their eyes from all new babies in prams ? Do they plan their route to avoid primary schools ? My sisters and sister in law have no children and take great interest in my lot , sometimes to the point I don't see them they go straight to sons house .

I think it's a bit unreasonable of them to expect you to always tiptoe around their sensibilities as you have done. I think maybe you should carry on as normal too.

How sad for them and for you!

One of my brothers has no children but both he and his wife love to see all their nephews and nieces and comment how nice is to see them but to go home to a nice tidy house!

I would say their attitude and behaviour is extreme, and a bit thick that they expect you to pander constantly to their sensitivities. Yes, it is terribly sad but then life is, in so many ways, for so many of us.
They should read the first page of M Scott Peck's The Road Less Travelled. My poor DC wearied of me quoting this at them whenever they felt life had dealt them a bad hand

Your DD has said that she would like to visit on the day so that she can catch up with her relatives. Given that your direct question about meeting up with your DC and DGC elicited no response, I would be tempted to tell your DD to come, with the children. That is 'normal' behaviour and your sibling and spouse should surely recognise this. What would they do, confronted by your DD and DGC? Do you think they would leave? Do you think it might be worth the risk? It may be the only way to break the deadlock. Or it could cause a complete breakdown in your relation with them.
I do feel for you

By 'first page' I mean the first page of the first chapter, Problems and Pain, not the introduction.

The birthday card, and present thing. Sounds like they feel a bit unloved. Not sure what you can do about that, as[and speaking from experience of someone I know like this], no amount of telling them otherwise may make much difference.
But having said that, the person I know like this, is not your sister, so perhaps trying to reassure them both of how much you love them?

That's just plain weird. I think you should ignore and set up a whole family lunch out together. You could all go to that lovely pub near you. (We went to it recently. In a village with a Knights Templar church? ) you would at least get some lovely food. I bet they would enjoy it.



No, I'm not going to bed.

I suspect that what AshTree is suggesting might cause a complete breakdown in the relationship.
Up to you if you try it. They sound very entrenched to me.

I am wondering too Mishap whether maybe you are being over-considerate, and this is enabling their unreasonable behaviour?
I agree with Jane10.
Behave with them as you would behave with anyone else - you can do that without rubbing anyone's noses in it, or gloating about their situation compared to yours.

If I had family members like this I would not be happy for them to come and see me.

I can appreciate the GC issue is sensitive for them but there is no way that I would be telling my children and their families that they are not able to visit my home while they are staying. If they don't want to see my family they would have to choose not to come.

I do understand that such cut and dried responses are not actually very helpful. I hope you are able to work it out so that it works for you all Mishap.

There must be more to it than you having DGC, Mishap and they not.

Was there sibling rivalry when you were small? Which of you is the elder? Did your parents know they had a grandchild who could not have children? If so how did the re-act?

I had some years of difficulty with my own DS, when she very pointedly ignored my children. When we finally sorted it out, it was something embedded in our childhood that had nothing to do with the children - and not much to do with me either.

Might sibling rivalry be part of it?

I'd suggest that if your dgc come into your conversation then so be it.

If your own DD and dgc arrive unexpectedly ..... there is little that you can do about it

An awkward situation and I do find family differences upsetting.

Thank you for all the ideas that have been put forward. It does help to get other perspectives on it all. I do not know what is behind it, except of course for their sadness at their situation; but the sadder thing is that they never see my children, their own nieces. That is a real shame. I think that all I can do is to just ignore it all; proceed with normal conversations (which will include the family) and hope for the best.

It is a sorry situation, and they are the losers in all this.

I've just seen your message jings and I think your SatNav must be on the blink or you have come to a false conclusion. Would that we did have a pub with good food in our village! - it is rubbish and not for the faint-hearted! But I'm glad you had a good meal wherever you were!

What a dilema Mishap, and one that has grown in the face of your consideration and sensitivity.

As I've got older, I've become more tolerant about many things,but less tolerant of people who try and control others. Life is tough in different ways for all of us and most of us simply dust ourselves off and try and live our lives in a decent/loving way that doesn't cause distress to others. Most of us will have friends/family who have either not been able to have children or have suffered losses in their relationships (see the threads on gransnet about estrangement)

Sending best wishes for your discussions and like you, I hope for the best

Mishap We were visiting a Knights Templar church - which was very old (of course). I thought you said before that the church in your village dated back to the Knights Templar. Perhaps I'm thinking of the wrong poster. (Or it's very possible that there are other such churches).

Mishap From what you say about their attitude to other things, could it be that even if they had grandchildren of their own, they still might be rather mean spirited? I'm an only child but I feel sure that if I had siblings I would want to have a close relationship with their children and grandchildren, even in the unfortunate circumstances that you mention. I can understand people in their situation feeling twinges of sadness and regret about what might have been, but I really don't understand them being so resentful of close family members.

I had a very small extended family because my dad was also an only child and my mum only had one brother. That brother, my uncle, had three children and whilst my mum was fond of his children and interested in what they were doing, my uncle had no interest in me whatsoever and I felt he almost disliked me. Some people are like that - they are only really interested in their own children/grandchildren.

I have sympathy for their feelings of loss but I find it difficult to have sympathy for the way in which they deal with those feelings. I think, however disappointed they are, it is unkind and hurtful of them to make it clear that they want nothing to do with your grandchildren and to make you feel that you can't talk about them. I tend to agree with those who feel you should not go out of your way to keep your grandchildren away from them and I certainly think that you should be able to mention your grandchildren in their presence.