Support for family members cut out of loved ones lives 5

Have you tried arms length contact?

That's the most we ever had really, we never had a particularly close relationship.

I've tried public places and only seeing her in company, but then she just hisses quietly so that the people around us don't hear what she's saying.. but the effect is the same.

its moving yourself out of the vicious circle and that in it self is difficult to do more so when you love someone...there comes a stage in your life if you dont remove yourself you will end up drowning ....

Notanan, it won't be you that's the cause of your mum's anger. Hopefully you know this. It's not you making her angry. It sounds as though she's projecting her anger onto you which is a shame because it's giving you no option but to remove yourself. We can't be expected to accept angry, hostile, critical behaviour from anyone on a regular basis, it's just not the way to communicate. My daughter gets angry with me and vents it all in emails. I love and miss her but I don't miss the mood swings. Sounds familiar?

It sounds as though it's making you sad not to have contact with your mum on some level. Have you tried arms length contact? For example, just having fortnightly chats on the phone? My daughter and I can chat on the phone like nothing ever happened. It's when get together tension arises and things bubble over.

Obviously you don't want to keep getting burnt, I realise that. If your mum can't see that getting angry is hurting you then you do have to protect yourself from exposure to her moods.

I do feel for you. xxx

always going back for "more" that should say at the end

No predictable trigger Nina, it could be as simple as her offering me a cup of tea and me saying no thank you because I don't fancy a cup of tea right now, and all hell breaks loose.

-If I walk away, she follows me
-If I suggest we take a breather, she follows me, she will not walk away when she wants a row
-If I question why there's even a problem, that makes her furious
-If I say, "okay, I'll have the tea" or whatever she's saying I should have done - I've ruined the moment so there's no point now in anyone having tea and that escalates things
-If I engage with an aim to resolving whatever the problem was, it will have escalated so fast that it wouldnt even be about the cup of tea any more, within minutes it'll have become about every disappointment in her life and how they're all my fault (including things that happened before I was born) and nothing I say can satisfy her
-If I try to bring it up later when things appear calmer with an aim to figuring out what the hell happened over a simple cup of tea, and how can we stop it happening again, she'll either deny it happened at all, or have re-written history to the point where there's no hope of a frank discussion about it.

I would when I was younger, end up in tears begging her to stop. Later, I learnt there was no point trying to reason or resolve it, so I resolved to trying to block it out because whatever I did or didn't do, once she started it would escalate. And I'ld just try to physically avoid the fights by physically removing myself as soon as it was starting to kick off.. easier said than done with her though as she would follow me or block my way.

She's always been like that. I never knew as a child when it was all going to kick off. There was no consistancy to it, back to the cup of tea example: 2/3 times it would be no problem for me to say "no thank you" to a cup of tea, and then another time I'ld do nothing differently and it'ld be a huge problem.

There's so much anger in her towards me simmering under the surface at all times, that even when things are in a lull and seem friendlyish.. you know it's only a matter of time…

I just don't undersand how she can direct such rage at someone she says she loves. I can't imagine feeling that way towards my own children (and they're already much older than I was when I remember her being that way towards me as a child)

But don't be misled by that last sentance, this is not about me not getting over my childhood - she is still like this with me in the present tense if I am in contact with her.

I can't fix any of that by getting back in contact. The only behaviour I can change is my own, I can't change hers. And I've changed my behaviour from always going back for me, to not going back for more.

Have you and your mum always fought Notanan? Is there a trigger or one particular thing that causes friction between you?

Sad notanan it seems f maybe wrong that you would have liked to try and keep contact if things could have been different

That's a more difficult question to answer than it should ideally be.
I'ld love to have a mother-daughter relationship, someone to chat to who is interested in your life. I've never had that though, I gave an example of how making conversation with my mother would turn sour even if it was an innocent topic on the "nasty" thread.

So, yes, I'ld love to have a mother-daughter relationship.. with someone. But specifically wih her.. well, I tried and tried and it was like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I'ld try planning nice things for us to do together but it would always be wrong somehow and end in a viscious row, and I don't mean a bit of a disagreement, I mean a viscious viscious row.

I don't understand why she could never love me more than she seemed to hate me. She said she loved me but I don't experience a loving relationship with her.

And. Well that was one thing, but I hoped she could be different around the kids. She was for a short while, I was gutted, GUTTED, that she didn't love them enough either to keep the nasty side of things out of her time with them. But when it was bad for them to be around her I feel she left me no choice but NC.

It's one thing to go back and let someone repeatedly hurt you, but it's another thing all together to let someone be like that around your kids! I couldn't. When it was just me I could go through the cycles of pulling away because it hurt, then trying to understand and forgive, then trying to re-build it so it could be better next time, and it never was. But it's not right to bring kids into that, it's not right to let them believe that that is how it sould be with someone who says they love you.

Yeah, I'm sad about it, I would have loved a relationship with her, I would have loved my kids to have another nanna (they have their other nanna luckily). I don't think we can have those things with her though.

I struggle to understand it because I can't imagine putting my own kids in the position of chosing between a rock and a hard place the way she has.

For all those members who struggle with having to try and explain their family situation, I now say, when asked......'Are you sure you really want to know? I come from the Adams family.
This is your lucky day. You're talking to the sane member'.
I then raise an eyebrow and wink at them.

They leave me alone after this. I don't mind explaining but I find more and more that I no longer want to keep going back there.

Jenty, sorry. xxxx

WendySue, yes, our maternity care, for my generation anyway, was very good. Midwives were wonderful and so was our district nurse.

I can't go into too much detail about my own family situation because I wouldn't want to identify any family members. It all happened a long time ago,mostly, and we've all got lives to lead.
One of the questions in a counselling course I did was 'how much time to you devote to analysing the situation'?
An excellent question because we can all end up over analysing and staying stuck. The best way to move your life forwards, and be at peace, is to focus on those things you can change, not those you can't. You have to physically make the effort to create a life around the problem or situation so that instead of it dominating all aspects of your life, it takes up a room in a corner of your mind instead.
I lead a very fulfilling life, there's a an area of sadness that lives in a part of me. But it no longer lives in all of me. If that makes sense?

I persevered with my yd via emails every so often to ask how she was but didnt get any replies ( not seen her for 6 years and have no idea where she is living theres no grandchildren that I know of) a few months ago she actually started responding and regular emails were exchanged some were very hostile toward me, but I remained calm with my replies because I didnt want to get into an argument with her. I gave her my new address and phone number in case she wanted to visit as I had moved, she didnt give me hers even though I had asked. I actually thought bridges were being built but how wrong was I.
Out of the blue I got an email from her asking who her real father was as she has a different blood type from her father ( her father died 7 years ago and no it wasnt because of his death that she decided to cut herself off from the entire family as she had already cut off from her siblings) I tried to explain to her that kids dont always have the same blood type as their parents but she was having none of it so I emailed her a link re blood types and parents and told her that her dad was her father and theres no question about it and that she was out of order to even suggest it.

I didnt hear from her for a few weeks, I didnt email her I left her to calm down as she wasnt listening, then I got an email saying she needs my help as she was in serious debt!! she wanted £7000! I emailed back saying I dont have that kind of money but if she would like to come and see me and bring the paperwork of her debts I will go through them with her and help as much as I can. She told me she didnt think it was a good idea to come and see me so I told her that I couldnt help her then. Have to say I had doubts that she was ever in debt in the first place. Then I got a couple of vile emails from her telling me she is blocking me and Im never to contact her again.
No I wont contact her again the ball is in her court!
Its obvious to me that all she was after was money not contact with me. I'm angry with myself because I let her in once again to hurt me.

Ive come to accept the fact she doesnt want me in her life and thats her choice, I will not be used by her for her own ends!

9 days! Wow! Things must have been very different back then, regarding that, between the UK and the US! Here, I only got to stay in the hospital 3 days b/c of insurance (nowadays, it's generally 2 days here, again cuz of insurance). Only moms who had C-sections got to stay longer. But most new moms I knew were anxious to get home, anyway.

I still don't see how your relatives managed to get so much influence over your DD. I know that as kids get older, especially in their teens and young adulthood, they might talk to a parent's adversaries and come to see some of their POV. But what you've described is more extreme. It boggles the mind!

Rhinestone, thankyou. The pressures and expectations of parenting has definitely changed. I think my generation were so lucky. When I had my daughter, I had to stay in the maternity hospital for 9 days. Not by choice, it was what we had to do. During this time we were shown at great length how to treat and care for a baby from bathing to feeding. We were given huge bounty packs full of baby products and samples and once we got home, we were then visited for at least a week by the District Nurse to make sure we were coping and everything was OK.
When my daughter had her child just over 2 years ago, she was in and out of hospital on the same day. That was it. I don't know if she got any follow up healthcare visits but compared to what my generation of mums were given, I don't know how young mums are expected to know how to care for a baby let alone bring up children these days. I know advice is out there but it's a different world today. 50 years ago women were still dying in childbirth so at least this has improved. But I wonder if we've gone backwards in other ways.

Just strolling I find it very very difficult to see how our ed has given us any thoughts at all let along done her best, However it is as it is as someone said and absolutely no point in beating myself up. We would have welcomed that chance to have been spoken to and maybe given chance to sort any problems, we didn't even have to see her so much or Be in phone contact it was very very cruel to cut us off overnight all phone contact now changed and inform us by 2nd class post that we were now superfluous.

We have rebuilt our lives and thank god every day for our son or I would have felt I made a right disaster of parenting.

Sad notanan it seems f maybe wrong that you would have liked to try and keep contact if things could have been different.

I guess estrangement is tough on both sides it has to be really.

Nina I don't think we can ever cut our children out of our hearts whatever our heads tell us.

Smilelss very very good luck for the open house today,?????

Notanan..............I really understand what you're saying. NC is hard choice and it's still painful. I also agree, if any family member is treating us deliberately unkindly or making us feel bad, we don't have a lot of choice but to remove ourselves. There are plenty of lonely, hurting AC out there. My daughter is very critical, in fact sometimes she reminds me of my mother, I do wonder if it's in the genes. So I've realised I can't keep going back to because she's a trigger for much earlier, childhood wounds caused by my mum's rejection. We all have an inner child to love and protect. She is welcome to return as long as she can be civil towards me. I am civil to her and willing to bend.
My door and heart remain open for my daughter though. I find I can't close it.

Thanks Rhinestone. Different generation, different thinking. xx

*Smileless***I hope you are feeling better. Just wondering if you countered that offer you were made. We priced my in laws place higher so we could come down. It worked. When someone really wants your home they will negotiate.
Thank you Ninayou are expressing the same sentiments I have. I guess growing up in the 50's and 60's I was taught to respect my elders. I was taught that I didn't have to agree with them but just to respect them.
*Juststrolling *why is our parenting wrong if the child won't sit down and have a conversation with us as you say? You instill certain norms of right and wrong when they are young. You have NO control over what they think and how they behave when grown. As your child grows other things influence their behaviors, thoughts and feelings. People change in response to that growth. As Nina said our EC have different views on parenting. So I'm not going to feel guilty that my ESS and my ES haven't had a conversation with us and I am at fault. I had a wonderful relationship with my ES. But he changed being influenced by his use of pot and who he was hanging out with not my parenting.

Celebgran, thank you for taking the time to answer me. I'm sorry if it caused you distress. It must be distressing to think your DC analysed things in this way.

I don't think I understand what you meant by 'wrong footing' the parents. I spoke of the dynamics between an EP and an EAC, and I included both points of view, because both matter. I am not wrong footing or being aggressive to any EP, just making the EAC visible. They are the other half of the situation. The situation isn't one sided. It doesn't have only one valid viewpoint.

'We are all human, and we all do our best'. Yes, that's true, and I'm sure you have. Your daughter will have as well. She is also human, and has done her best.

"And yet, estrangement is a strange and difficult business whoever you are."

So true, Haitian. No estranged person has a monopoly on pain.

As for your story, it truly brought tears to my eyes. I know some people may still question your going NC with your mother. But she really wasn't what most of us think of as a mother, was she, in any sense of the word (except biological). My heart is with you. (((Hugs)))

why if these AC who've decided NC with their parents is justified, they've done the right thing and are happier without them, they keep banging on about it.

Yes, I know that's all we do on this thread but we're not happy that our children want nothing to do with us, that they're denying us our GC; we're devastated

I can have a bash at answering that smileless, if you're interested?

HappIER without them, as in it's the lesser of two evils. Not happy that we've had to go NC, not happy that we don't have the option of healthy normal contact. We're devastated too to have been put in the position of having two crappy choices, and NC is the less crappy one, but it's still crappy and we're still upset that we've had to and we're still hurt that our parents didn't allow any other options. Yes, happier now, happIER. Still sad about it.

Does that make sense to you Smileless?
I don't really have any power over the situation, my mother holds the power, she holds the power because yes, I could get back in contact, but I can't make her change her ways, only she can do that, and she doesn't chose to she choses to be hurtful and nasty and damaging to not just me but the kids too.

NC is the end of a long road of trying and trying to make things work, not the reason why things aren't working. And AC who have had to go NC have every right to feel upset and confused about why it's had to come to this.

Yes, you are on the right thread HaitainDivorce because although it is you, and for very good reason, that has estranged yourself from your mother, you are sharing your sad story in an informative and non judgemental way. What I mean by that is that you are not attacking or judging the parents on this thread who have been cut out of their AC and GC's lives. You are not assuming that we have behaved in such a way as to deserve our estrangement.

I'm truly sorry that you've had such a difficult relationship with your mother and for me there was one sentence that's evidence, if any were needed, of your mature and balanced approach to the estrangement issue; of your mother approaching her GC, your children, you say "She could, they are old enough, and I wouldn't intervene".

for you and thanks for your honest and touching posts.

HaitianDivorce, I understand you completely. I've found you have to develop a hard shell and shrug off what others think. I also agree it's hard to explain and if ever I feel I need to, I do it as an outline of the situation rather than go into any depth. I've found it's usually better to offload to those who have been through the same situation rather than friends or acquaintances. There are plenty, it's not as rare as it appears. As you say, it's an awkward topic so people stay silent rather than talk about it.
Online groups have given people more opportunity to open up and talk which has helped them realise that they're not alone in their situation. We've moved from the old adage, 'what goes on behind closed doors stays behind closed doors'. People feel far more able to talk about things which is good because then they can begin to heal and gain a new perspective. xx

Marg, I think you made some good suggestions for maintaining a GP/GC relationship even if the parents and GPs are estranged. They are certainly worth thinking about.

Nina, thanks for answering me further. I must admit I'm shocked and saddened to see how your DD has been influenced by the rest of your extended family. Who would try to turn a daughter against a mother that way? What purpose does it serve? And how did they get her ear to that extent? I am so very sorry. More (((hugs)))

Smileless, good to see you back. and thanks for the compliment.

I have more to say but have to go for a while. Be back later.

Thank you for the welcome and sorry not to respond sooner - this thread moves fast!

Marg, you asked me:

Just out of interest and this is not to judge, I am just interested, how do you broach the subject of non contact with your parents and/or in laws to your children and why they aren't seeing, in some cases, the whole side of their maternal and/or paternal family whichever the case

It's just my mother I'm NC with. My father passed away a long time ago. I'm on good terms with my ILs. Actually, reading through some of the other posts, I realise that at various times in the past it's she who has broken contact with me, so this is not a one-way street. I was thrown out of the family home in my teens for a breach of expectation I'd rather not describe directly because it might identify me to anyone who knows me in real life. But suffice to say, 40+ years on and as a mother myself, I can honestly say it was no reason even to be angry never mind to throw me out on to the street. It was just that she wanted me to do something different, something that more exactly matched the future she had imagined for me.

Over the years, my failure to meet her expectations has always been met with a period of estrangement, or something like it - perhaps a period of being very rude, dismissive and sniffy of me and my life, until I redeemed myself by doing what she wanted. At the time of our latest estrangement, which I regard as permanent, I had been her primary carer. She is now very elderly but lives 'independently' - except to say that her definition of independent involved me devoting every waking hour to meeting her needs, on top of work and having a family of my own. When I say she was making me ill, I mean physically, in that she was running me ragged, but also at a deep psychological level - I was 'heartsick', if you like. Nothing I was doing was good enough - or even just enough. I was at the end of my tether - a 50-year tether with a great deal of criticism, unrealistic expectation and nastiness attached to it. If I dared to not put her first even for a moment, she would hurl abuse down the phone at me, or to my face. Only in private, though, never in front of anyone else. The only time that stopped briefly was one day when I put the phone down on her. She cried and apologised (well, said she 'was sorry she seemed to have upset me so much'), demanded to know what she had done wrong, but apparently learned nothing from the episode, because everything went back to 'normal' for another two years after that. I suppose you could say I learned nothing too, because I let it. But standing up to a parent is really hard, especially when you've been trained from the earliest age to understand that the sky will fall down if you do. Eventually, I just couldn't take it any more. I told her some home truths about the way she was behaving and treating me, she asked me to leave her house (not my home), and I did. We haven't spoken since. I say I am NC with her because I know I will never see or speak to her again, but perhaps she would say she is NC with me.

To answer your question, Marg, my children (who are still at home but no longer small) have seen all of this unfold and know for themselves how awful it's been. Of course, you try to protect your children, but they know just how many times I have had to leave the house in a hurry because of an 'emergency' that turned out to be anything but. They have seen and heard her outbursts, and know how cruel her tongue can be. They know how she has played 'favourites' between my sister and me, and have felt how it feels when she tried to do the same with them. I haven't, in all honesty, had to say much to them, except that when they've asked about my own childhood, I've answered honestly (age-appropriately, obviously). They don't miss her. I understand she tells other family members she misses them, but she has made no effort to contact them. (She could, they are old enough, and I wouldn't intervene.)

What is harder than the children, who, sadly, have been privy to a lot of the madness, is just people generally, who seem to think it's awful to be not in contact with your mother. I feel that nobody knows what I've been through and that they shouldn't judge if they haven't been in my shoes. But explaining what it's been like in my shoes is very, very difficult when what I would be describing is a corrosive, attritive process, rather than a single, awful, precipitating event.

Anyway, I don't know if I am on the wrong thread perhaps. It seems as though most here are on the other side of the net. And yet, estrangement is a strange and difficult business whoever you are.

Sorry just strolling I think ed had written the list.

Welcome Smilelss so good see friendly poster!

I too feel Lucy at gransnet has left a lot of posts that were plainly trouble making but at least she has noted it,??

Just strolling I didn't see the list my dear husband did and he was in shock main loss was financial on the against side and gain was no more upsets which is puzzling as we had been v close since gd born I thought,?.

It distresses me to remember this but you kindly asked so that's all we know just strolling.

I felt is was tad aggressive to wrong foot the parent all the time in your ur posts as we are all human and most of us do our best but maybe you didn't mean it to sound that way,

Smilelss hope open day goes v well??

Had lovley afternoon with my little great niece. Happy weekend all