Fear I have lost them

How often do you see your grandson, Nelly?

We don't see them at regular intervals. We may seem them twice in one month but then not see them again for two or three months.

We never know when we will see them and even if we make plans they quite often cancel on the day for various reasons. We can't be sure we will see them until they are actually here.

I have no idea how 'normal' this is, but it's not normal to me.

Nelly I think you must be the ultimate 'Queen bee' and it really is all about you - at least in your own opinion. Therein lies the rub because it is not about you at all, you are neither the Queen bee or the King pin but just a small cog in a big family.

Your DIL should have had her day of her dreams not yours because it was her wedding to her new husband.
You say that your daughter in law gave birth to your grandson! She did not! She gave birth to her very own precious child, the first offspring in her little family with her husband!

I wonder if you have ever asked your DIL for advice? The sky would not fall in you know but it certainly would be attention grabbing! At the least it would be a public acknowledgement that you don't know everything and are willing to listen.
Do take your son's advice and back off!

I think that this is so serious that you probably need professional help and would recommend that you get talking therapy at the very least. You have had to take charge from a very young age and clearly cannot allow yourself to relax and let go after all these years. This you must do or you will also end up with estrangement from the other sons and their families too as often the 'remedy' or 'antidote to THE NIGHTMARE MIL' will be shared!
Please do get professional relational help! Relate would assist with this.

Is it possible to be up front? - to say to your DD quite openly that you realise your approach may have seemed interfering and that you regret that. Maybe say that you are learning how to be a good grandma and MIL and that you would value her help and advice in this.

It's a bit of a lateral thought - but what do you have to lose?

I think that Is worth a try Luckygirl.

Nelly, there may be be a lot of humble pie to be eaten before this situation is resolved.
I can only echo the very good advice that has been given here and add
that it could take a long time to get back on track with your DIL. Try and get your son on side, tell him how much you regret what has gone on in the past, that you realise you were OTT and that you will tread carefully with your DIL in the future. You could suggest a very brief visit to them (say 30 mins) saying that you will just call in on the way to somewhere else. Build up gradually and don't expect too much too soon.
You really need to try and put yourself in your DIL's position - it's possible she has low self esteem and to marry into a family with an overbearing (sorry!) MIL might have been a nightmare for her. You MUST see things from her point of view.
I know you were probably motivated by good intentions but, as my late mum used to say, 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions.'
Think about that - and good luck.

I have never really had a proper discussion with my daughter in law, she has always resisted any attempts by me. I have always spoken to my son or got my husband to speak to them.

My husband has asked my daughter in law for help before. I have asked my son and he has asked her. She has helped us before. I have also directly asked her to help prepare food or do some shopping.

I have stepped back a lot and kept my thoughts mostly to myself. The last discussion I had with my son about this he bought it up first.

He said that I need to let my grandson come to me so I took the opportunity to be open with him about my feelings. It didn't go down well and I probably should have stayed quiet.

I would apologies to your DIL either a letter or maybe some flowers with a simple card.
You had acknowledged that you have been in the wrong which is good. You have caused a lot of pain and upset, it's only fair that you that sorry for causing it, it won't fix anything but it will show your son and DIL that you had acknowledged what you've done and are sorry for it.

I've been in a similar position that your DIL is in and all we wanted was an apology for the upset that has been caused but my MIL ignored it, denied everything and spun it round to make herself look like the one who had been hurt. It was difficult for my husband but by the end of it he was absolutely furious with her, we haven't seen her in almost 3 years.

Don't let this be you, it's been almost 7 years with everything that has gone on and I don't think I'll ever forgive her because she feels she's done nothing wrong and has discarded our feelings so easily.

Oh dear Nelly you really don't 'get it' do you!

It would seem that you can only do things on your terms and help is not advice. When you asked for help it was clearly because you had already decided on a course of action. There is a vast difference. If you had asked for advice it would indicate that you valued your DIL's opinion and would even do something her way instead of yours.

I am not surprised that it didn't go down well when your son spoke to you about what was on their hearts regarding their little son and you merely responded by telling him about your feelings. How did you manage to turn that round to you and why? Your son is clearly trying to help you understand their position and feelings and you are not listening! He will not try forever you know so for your own sake and for your husband's sake please get some professional help with this before it is too late. If your children decide enough is enough then your husband will lose out too and that could lead to even greater catastrophe.

In your last post your last six words are the best thoughts. I would add that you need to develop some empathy, put yourself in your DIL's shoes and think how you would make you feel in her position. The family love you and are trying to sort this out so you need to do your bit and get to work by getting an appointment with someone at Relate. Today is a good day!

"I have stepped back a lot and kept my thoughts mostly to myself. The last discussion I had with my son about this he bought it up first.

He said that I need to let my grandson come to me so I took the opportunity to be open with him about my feelings. It didn't go down well and I probably should have stayed quiet."

So I take it you've stepped back as far as giving DS and DIL unsolicited advice and so forth. But now you need to step back where GS is concerned and, as DS said, let him come to you. I know that in your OP, you say you "tried that once" and it didn't help. But once is not enough, IMO. It's bound to take some time.

As for your expressing your feelings to DS, I actually understand that if you just wanted him to know you feel as if GS "hates" you, etc. But the timing was probably wrong since DS had already advised you as to what you need to do.

IF you also voiced concerns about not seeing them more often or not getting to babysit, that's another matter. While I understand your seeing that conversation as a good opportunity to bring these issues up, it may have sounded to DS as if you were just complaining/arguing w/ his and DIL's parental decisions. IME, that doesn't go over well. Please avoid it in the future (if that's what happened).

But, as Synonymous says, your last 6 words, show that you know you made a mistake. Live and learn!

"He is always telling me to leave things alone and let people get on with their lives."

Not sure what this means. Do you tend to try to push DS and family to see you more often?

"We don't see them at regular intervals. We may seem them twice in one month but then not see them again for two or three months."

Does it seem to depend on when holidays/birthdays are? That might explain the unevenness. Or is it about seasons perhaps? (Harder to travel with kids in winter and they're more likely to be sick then, for example.) Distance could be another factor - you don't say how near or far you live. If it helps, however, I know GPs who only see their AC and families once or twice a year.

Regardless, I imagine you would like to see them more often and more regularly. But I hope you understand that they have a right to decide their own schedule (you didn't say otherwise, I know).

"I have never been trusted to babysit him or even be alone in the same room as him. My son and daughter in law are always there."

Maybe they don't leave him alone with anyone? Or just one or two people that he knows? Given the fact that he hasn't warmed up to you yet, I'm sorry but I understand why they would hesitate to leave him alone with you. Perhaps you can see it, too?

In time, if you continue to back off - from GS as well as them - maybe they will increase their visiting time and even let you babysit, now and then, if it's feasible (again, I don't know how far away you live). Maybe not. But at least, things won't get any worse. I wish you all the strength you need to restrain yourself at all levels. Again, I know it may be hard since you've been so used to taking charge.

If you see them at the intervals that you have described, then this little chap will of course be wary of you - you are a stranger as far as he is concerned.

I see my 3 oldest GC at about the time interval that you describe - they live the other end of the country, so I would not expect it to be otherwise.

You need to stop wanting more than you can reasonably expect and definitely stop talking to son about your feelings. I will make the poor chap feel as though he is banging his head against a brick wall and we all stop doing that after a while. Thank him for his suggestions and say that this is what you will do.

We have to accept that our children know what is best for their children and that this has to be their priority. One of my DGDs has never had a sleepover with us, but often does with the "other" granny. I have never mentioned nor quibbled this - their child, their decision. And I know the wee lass has a good time there and am happy for her.

I think that you might do better if you stopped thinking of them as 'yours'.
Imagine that they are just any family with a small child and treat them accordingly. You wouldn't offer advice and have expectations- you could just be friendly and if you back off like that you are more likely to have the sort of relationship that you crave-in time.
You can't force things with children and you are there for the long term, hopefully.
Once he is older and you can spend hours reading to him, playing board games etc you are far more likely to be closer.

They live roughly 10 minutes away by car. Out of my 3 sons my youngest lives the closest to me.

We almost didn't see them Christmas and we didn't see them at all for my grandsons first birthday. My grandson was ill but even if he wasn't it was made clear they wanted to spend the day just the three of them. They spend most holidays and birthdays together, sometimes with her family and rarely with us.

I'm hurt that we have never been trusted to be alone or look after him. It hurts that we don't see them often. I get now that there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, that hurts to.

They won't hear from me how much it hurts though.

I'm hurt that we have never been trusted to be alone or look after him.

That's because your GS is wary of you and isn't comfortable around you. Why would they leave a baby with someone who he doesn't know? That wouldn't be fair on him as it would cause massive distress for him. It isn't about you.

I get the impression that you know best. You dont take their feelings or their opinions in to consideration, would this be the same with your GS?
Maybe they don't trust you with him because you haven't done anything to gain their trust. You've walked over them and ignored their wants and just done what you wanted. Maybe, they don't want that to happen with their son.

They have backed off from you because of the way you have acted. You have pushed them away, I don't think you mean it maliciously but it's happened. I wouldn't spend my time with people who have hurt and upset me, would you? Backing off is your only option.

Why does it hurt that you have never been alone with him or been asked to look after him? Why should you if they feel they have no need of it? The clue in your question is that you say you have "never been trusted" to do this. In other words you are interpreting it in relation to you and what you want, rather then in relation to them and their needs. Of course they will not hear from you "how much it hurts" because they are busy bringing up their child and doing what they consider best for him. They have not deliberately set out to hurt you so that accusation is just something that they can do without at this both challenging and happy time of their lives.

You have to tear up this list of rules that you have in your head about how your son and his wife should bring up their child and in what ways and how often they should include you. There is no "should" about any of this. These are simply your expectations and they have proved to be wrong.

I am sorry to sound harsh but you really will "lose" them if you do not think this through very carefully. You need to start saying positive things about your GS and the lovely home life they are creating for him. Making them feel good rather than making demands on them.

You have got off on the wrong foot and you need to make amends; but you cannot do that until you start re-thinking all this in your own mind. If you try and make amends whilst still having a feeling of entitlement in your heart, then it will not work.

The paradox is that the more you back off the more you will gain in the long run.

As to feeling that your GS won't come to you, is it worth thinking from his point of view? - just over 12 short months ago he was a foetus - he knew no-one and nothing about the world or about people. He has learned so much in that time - it is quite remarkable what they achieve. He is feeling his way. One of his skills is picking up on tension around him - it is his survival mechanism. Give him time, give him space, stay cool and detached - indeed, ignore him and as the visit wears on he will start to accept you as part of the wallpaper. That would be a good start.

I am sorry that it is not all working out simply for you - you have such a lot of ground to make up in your thinking about this. But I do understand that it is causing you distress, and hope very much that there will be a way forward.

Where does your DH stand on this now?

My grandchildren live about 30 minutes drive from me, they are 5 & 7. I have never had them overnight, nor felt any loss for not having them. They spend the odd night with the other gran, (DIL has a HUGE extended family that all live in the same town).

Perhaps I'm just the wrong sort of gran? I don't lose any sleep over it.

(Dons tin helmet and waits for flack from all the adoring hands on grans)

I don't see why you should say that. Many feel the same. Everyone isn't a doting Gran who can't live without family. Having said that I love my Gc with a passion.

My husband is also frustrated and upset by all of this.

We both grew up surrounded by family and growing up our boys were also surrounded by family.

We are both very family oriented and love hosting big family get togethers and going on family holidays.

Despite all three of them growing up almost the same it seems only our middle son and his girlfriend share this sentiment.

My husband is less vocal though and he finds it easier than me to just let things be.

Maybe it would help if you just tried to go with the flow as your OH is.

Dear Nelly you have to remember that we are all quite different and in fact unique. No siblings turn out the same as another and no OH they find will be the same as any other having all been brought up in very different circumstances. Your sons will adapt themselves to the women they love in order to be in a loving family unit. Each time a son finds a woman to love they start up a brand new family and you move further away from the centre and less relevant to their happiness. They do not even think about the effect on you of their love for each other because they don't actually care. This is how it should be and indicates that your job is finished as regards bringing them up to be properly functioning young men with their own family.
Your life has changed so now you have to change too. Your husband is coping so take your lead from him and it is worth recognising that his frustration may not have the source that you think.

Nothing in life ever works out completely to everyone's satisfaction and however could it because no person is on their own and everything we do affects every other person with whom we interact. As 'they' say, no man is an island.
When there is a dominating person on the scene with their own agenda and who is oblivious to everyone else's needs and wants, a person who wants everything their own way then Trouble, with a capital T, is certainly coming. This often brings heartbreak in the long run perhaps even in the wake of family break ups and even marriage break ups.
Recognising that there is a problem is only the first step and then recognising that there is no quick fix is another and putting a good deal of effort in to change is yet another. There are very many steps and the longer the problem has been unchallenged and allowed to continue then the longer it will take. It may never be fully recoverable and sometimes the best that can be achieved is that the family just has to remember that they have a dysfunctional member with whom they have to cope and carry on as best they can by putting in protective measures.

Hopefully Nelly will now get cracking and also get help with all of this and she will keep us posted so that we can support her.

"We almost didn't see them Christmas and we didn't see them at all for my grandsons first birthday. My grandson was ill but even if he wasn't it was made clear they wanted to spend the day just the three of them."

Well then, take heart! This is very common today, to my understanding. Not what you and DH are used to (me either) and maybe not what most people do, but increasingly common. Especially if both parents work or one parent works long hours and they feel the need for that time together as a family unit. IOWs, it's not something that's only happening to you and yours, if that's any comfort.

"They spend most holidays and birthdays together, sometimes with her family and rarely with us."

Ok, I get that it can hurt to see that they spend more time with her family than with you people. But are you sure that's the case? The difference between "sometimes" and "rarely" is so often in the eye of the beholder. Her mom might see it the other way around. And YDS and YDIL might think they're dividing things up about evenly.

Then again, if their relationship is a little better with her parents than with you people, at the moment - and from their different experiences with the living arrangements, I imagine it is, I'm sorry to say - then that may be why they tend to spend more time with them. As your own relationship with them gets more comfortable, that MIGHT change.

But if it doesn't, please try not to waste time comparing - especially if it's a matter of "sometimes" versus "rarely" - it will do nothing except cause you hurt.

"'I'm hurt that we have never been trusted to be alone or look after him."

Again, chances are that this ^ will change, too, as time passes and GS gets more comfortable with you. Maybe not but it's possible. I know it may be hard, but please be patient?

"They won't hear from me how much it hurts though."

Much better to vent about it here.

Have you thought about apologizing as some of us suggested? For taking over wedding preps, disrespecting YDIL's wishes about laundry, etc. and refusing to listen to YDS? It won't change things overnight, but it may help you begin the repair the damage done to your relationship with them.

Even as adults, children want their mother (I.e. you, Nellybu) to have their best interests at heart.
Your son and daughter-in-law are not getting the impression that you do have their best interests at heart if you make demands on them and claim that their perfectly normal behaviour is upsetting you.

I am astonished that after all the helpful posts here you are still complaining of feeling hurt not to be asked to babysit, or allowed to be alone with the baby. You are being selfish and not looking at anyone else's point of view.

Give up wanting your wishes to be met and just fit in with how things are.

I know it may appear that I have not taken all your comments and suggestions on board but I have.

I have done a lot of thinking and I have also been talking a lot with my husband.

We are going to look into a lot of the suggestions that have been brought up. We are going to spend a bit more time together, maybe take up hobbies, consider outside help.

My husband is also going to attempt to help me with my attitude and approach towards everything and everyone. This will be hard for both of us but I'm sure (hope) we will get there.

We are also discussing if/ when we speak to our daughter in law/ son/ both. Understandably we want it to be a constructive discussion, we don't want to cause an even bigger rift.

As you all keep telling me, these things will take time so my husband and I are going to take it slow.

This whole situation is painful for me (us), I won't deny that. I may not be able to do much, and the little I can do may make no difference. Still doesn't mean I won't try.

Having lots of your own interests would help Nelly it will give you lots more to think about and you could have some fun.

One thing I can never understand is why anyone would want to babysit a one year old. I have babysat all day because Dds and DIL were working or studying but would never offer overnight stays, babies miss their parents too much. If you let your GS find you have interesting things at your house when he does visit and just letting him be when you see him at his home he will get used to you in his own time. There are many years yet when your GS is older and much more fun. you can see I am not s baby person.

Dont try, just let it go and enjoy spending time with your husband while you can. Let things fall into place in other words -Go with the Flow- you can't make things you want happen!