Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

I have followed this thread with some interest - and thought I would de-lurk to ask a couple of questions if you all don’t mind.

What about the grandparents who have either deliberately or through ignorance systematically has caused psychological damage to the parents of their grandchildren - undoubtedly causing their grandchildren harm in the process?

Should the children (parents of the grandchildren) stand back and say...ah but that was done out of love - although this harmful behaviour has had all of "these" detrimental effects - it was done out of love - so here - even though you cant restrain yourself from causing long term damage to me - your child - for your own purposes - here you go - have a play with my children?

That's not right surely?

This has led me to wondering about who gets to decide what is deliberate and harmful behaviour?
There would seem to be an issue with it being the person who feels harmed (which may be both)
so is it..
- people who set and enforce the rules?
- or the person who had to live by the others rules ?
Doesn’t the person with the power have to take responsibility for the problem - even if it has been created by ignorance?

Or is this all about a reversal of power as children have children? and does that in some way negate the original harm ?

Sorry - that was more questions than I thought it would be.

Wabisi, as a GM, myself, no way do I think parents should allow their kids around GPs who have "caused psychological damage!" That would be very bad parenting!

Who decides "what is deliberate and harmful behavior?" Gosh, I don't know for sure - tough question! But I think if an AC feels their parents' (the kids' GPs') behavior was "deliberate and harmful" - or even just harmful - the AC have to go by that in the effort to protect their kids and themselves. If the GPs acknowledge the harm they've done and sincerely commit to making amends (if possible) and/or changing their behavior from then on, perhaps the AC can consider reconnecting, eventually (and gradually). But otherwise, no.

The same is true if it's the GPs who feel they have been (deliberately) harmed by their AC. I don't know if bad behavior by one's AC can cause scars as deep as that of abusive behavior towards kids when they're growing up. (I don't think so cuz kids are more defensive.) But still, IMO, if the GP feels they have been deeply hurt, they, too can choose to protect themselves by going LC or NC. Except that GPs have the additional question of whether or not they want to "loose" the GC, as well.

In fact, as much as I feel even for EGPs who didn't commit such grievous harm, I have trouble seeing how a relationship between GPs and GC could be maintained if there's no relationship between the adults. How would it work? How do you (general) arrange visits if the adults are on NC and so not speaking, emailing and so on? Who would pick up and drop off the kids and how much tension would their be between the adults as they did so? Would the kids feel it? (Probably.) Is that good/ok for them? I understand GPs wishing that could be, but I think it would be very difficult

Checking out the related MN thread again, I see there's some concern about how an adult GC would feel if presented with a memory box of kiddie toys and all the past emails (again, I don't recall anyone mentioning saving toys - or showing old emails either, but perhaps I missed something). There was an assumption that GC could only feel sad and that, therefore, this is the GP's primary goal. I get the idea that GC might feel sad/wistful. But I also suspect that some EGPs think/hope that a more positive effect will occur - that it will warm GC's heart to see that the GPs didn't just forget them.

The charge was made that some GPs aren't capable of empathy cuz they don't seem to realize that such a box would make their GC feel sad (but if they don't realize it, how could it be their main goal?) But I think GNers could make the same charge in the other direction, that some MNers don't appear able to empathize with GPs enough to realize they hope that GC will be glad to see they weren't forgotten (well, if I'm right about that hope).

But really, what I think is going on here is a matter of different perspectives. For that reason, I'm glad MNers and GNers are talking with each other. Hopefully, we can all learn from this.

Alea

As for the last two post; what a load of old rubbish!

Oh, but I agree with Alea that not much can be gained if people just want to argue with each other and prove their own points. IMO, there's absolutely no need to be rude to each other either!

Thank-you for your considered answers Wendysue, they are interesting and worth thinking about.

Yogagirl do you always see things as black or white?

I'm wondering about the liberal dishing out of to those who seem to agree with you and calling posts who appear to disagree as 'a load of rubbish'.

This will doubtless seem like a contentious question, and I perhaps could have put it more subtly, but I'd be genuinely interested to read your thoughts on this.

Our ES will be 32 this year, he cut out of his life just before his 28th birthday. Until then we'd been extremely close, talking on the 'phone at least once a day. He would often call round on the spur of the moment and I can still see him standing there, with his arms outstretched and offering his cheek for a kiss.

Even though we were aware of some tension after the birth of our GS we had no idea that we would be cast out. Our relationship with our d.i.l. had deteriorated but we were still in contact with him and he was bringing our GS round and leaving him with us for a couple of hours at a time.

The last time, when he was 8 months old, we were going on holiday the following week for 3 weeks. We kissed our GS goodbye and told him we'd see him soon. So, a week later we went away and 6 days after our return was our ES's birthday so I did what I'd done every year since he'd left home, I 'phoned him to wish him a happy birthday and found that our number had been blocked. No explanation, no warning; nothing and we've had no contact with our GS since.

Just over 2 years ago he left her and reached out to us, we responded immediately and went to see him. Less than a week later he'd gone back and the silence returned. A few months later worried that they'd broken up again, we called round. She was there, slamming doors as we tried to talk to our son. We apologised for calling saying that we wouldn't have done so if we'd known she was there. He said nothing and went back into the house. As I was walking away the door opened again and he was just standing there. I walked back toward him, I was crying and stretching my arms out to him (I'm crying right now just thinking about it). As he turned to go back inside I said "..... please" it was then that he said "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble".

So you see *Wabisabi" there was no history of bad parenting, no physical or psychological abuse the only thing that had changed was that he'd got married to a young woman we genuinely loved and who was welcomed with open arms and open hearts into our family. Things changed when she became pregnant; it was only much later that we became aware of the extent of her lies and manipulation to drive a wedge between us and our son.

We don't feel that we've been deliberately harmed by our son and his wife, we have been. He told his brother that he has no recollection of telling us that we'd never see our GC; an absurd statement when you consider his behaviour over more than 3.5 years, so almost 2 weeks ago I emailed and asked if we could see them (they had another child 6 months ago. As yet, there's been no reply.

That sounds like the first scenario I outlined when my Sister-in-law married into the family Smileless

Yes, I remember your post Anya, it's frightening how much damage one person can cause when they enter into another family; puts me in mind of a cuckoo, laying its egg in another birds nest and when it hatches, the chick pushing the parent birds own off spring over the side so they don't have any competition.

It is also about control.

In our case, my potentential bil liked the moors and outdoor life, and wanted to buy a house a long way away from our family, partly to help enable cutoff from both families. Dsis didnt properly realise what he had in mind.

If you don't mind my asking obieone, what happened with your DS, did you lose contact with her?

I'm crying with you Smileless, whilst feeling very scared at the same time.

I have only seen my granddaughter twice, the last time over a year ago now. I truly welcomed my daughter-in-law, but whilst we never had a cross word, she never allowed me to become friends with her. Whilst this saddened me, I accepted it, and we had weekends and holidays together.....all of which I paid for. I welcomed her into my home, and was just happy for my son.

During her pregnancy I was very seriously ill and in hospital for three months. She never visited with my son, which I attributed to her condition, as they live quite a distance from me. However, I was shocked that I never had so much as a get well card/text, despite some very hairy times during that three months.

On the two occasions that they brought the little one, I sensed that she was unhappy with me even holding her. Refused to let me give her a bottle, or even push the buggy. I didn't show how desperately hurt I was. Again, I was so thrilled to see my son with his beautiful little girl. He was so besotted, it was lovely to see.

She has refused to visit with my son since then. Unfortunately, my illness has left me rather scared to travel alone, and if I'm honest, I don't feel strong enough emotionally to deal with her anyway. I have sent Christmas and birthday gifts but have had no response from her. My son is in contact with me almost daily. I have told him that I will not try to force the issue, for his sake. To say that my heart is breaking is a huge understatement.

So, when I read the experience of others, it really makes me afraid of what is happening. All my working life was spent helping others. Now, I can't even help myself.

Thanks Wabisabi for the positive feedback!

Obieone, I, too, am wondering how things worked out for Dsis, if you don't mind telling us.

Rosyglow, so sorry for your worry and heartache! But glad you came here before any overall break cuz maybe we can help you forestall one (can't promise anything, of course).

I'm sorry that DIL has never been open to being friendly with you. Some DILs are like that though, happy with their own friends and relatives (as well as their DH and kids, of course) and just not into getting close to their MIL. It doesn't necessarily mean there's a specific problem. IMO, it was very wise of you to accept the situation.

Her reluctance to let you so much as "push the buggy" when they visited is a red flag, I agree. But it may not mean very much, after all. I don't know what people call it in the UK, but here in the States, where I am, we often speak of the "inner Mame Bear." A lot of moms seem to be very protective of their babies on instinct, keeping others somewhat at bay, except for the dad or maybe people they know really well. If this was the case with DIL, it probably was nothing personal, even though it felt that way.

I hope you didn't push the issue at the time though I know it may have been hard not to. If you did, that may be why, sorry to say, DIL is avoiding you now. If not, then it may still just be a matter of the distance. Am I right in guessing that GD doesn't come with him either? They may both just find that traveling with a little one is too hard. I've seen a lot of DILs and DDs complain about that kind of thing on other sites. I'm sorry that means you've only seen GD twice in all this time. But chances are, if you don't press the issue, that will increase.

It's a good sign that DS contacts you so often! I've read (again on other sites) that some young couples have a yours/mine policy, where he contacts his side of the family and she hers. That means the thank yous and so on would be up to him, too (if that's what they're doing), so he may just be remiss about this. Be prepared but there are probably no real worries here.

But, of course, she should still thank you for any gifts sent just to her. If she doesn't could just be bad manners or whatever.

I'm truly sorry Rosyglow that you've seen so little of your GD. Try and hold on to the fact that you have almost daily contact with your son. I cannot imagine what it would have been like to have contact with our ES and to have been unable to see our GC, it must be very difficult for you both; your son knowing how much you must wish to see his D.

We had the same experience with our d.i.l., she'd make us feel so uncomfortable holding our GC that Mr. S. stopped doing so when she was around. Sadly, I can know longer imagine what it would be like to be in contact with our ES again; so much has happened and he bares little resemblance to the boy he once was.

It's strange isn't it Wendysue how with some it's their family and friends and they're just not interested in their partners' family. Even stranger when it was never that way before our GC was born. They'd asked me to have him 2 days a week when she went back to work so we spent about £400 on everything we needed to look after him at our house. A few weeks before this was due to happen, she'd got a new job and I was told our ES would have him one day and the childminder the other 2. They wanted "stress free and reliable childcare". And what of all the equipment we'd bought? They never bothered to ask but fortunately I'd purchased it from a mail order catalogue I'd used for years, and even though I'd past the date to return the goods, I was in such a state that they allowed me to return it all and get our money back.

If I didn't remind Mr. S. when his mother's bday was approaching he'd be sure to forget, well the exact date anyway, and I wouldn't dream of risking her being upset because her card and gift were late or of him feeling bad about not being on time.

When you marry you don't just become a wife or husband, you become a d.i.l. or s.i.l., a part of your partners family; something that should be respected if not cherished, certainly not a position that should be abused.

I admit not read all the posts but do think notanan you protest too loudly as they say.

Obviously my little Grandaughters won't miss me they have never know me, that does t make it rightl. Also what on earth makes it ok to cut of loving parents that did their utmost for you all their life, speaking of. Myown situation,

In general it seems that in this life no one is perfect and surely little ones are not brought up just to have perfect people in their lives, as they don't exist.

It is a truly dreadful world that shows no respect or gratitude to loving parents.

How dare any human being judge another person unfit to be a grandparent unless of course there are criminal convictions or definite abuse which would justify it.

Dsis has remained single, though now has a longterm boyfriend. Sadly, though we didnt know it for years, for her, other boyfriends didnt match up to the fiance. .
We didnt lose contact, but she blamed our dad a bit somewhat. Thinking about it, and again we didnt find out until much later, I think her relationship with our dad wasn't how it should have been after that. Nothing too bad at all, but altered for the worse.

Smilelss ??? I did not get to buying equipment stage plan was I was going to drive to ed and care for little girl once a week I was sooo thrilled,

Couple months before ed returned to work I went to visit and she was v het up I was reprimanded furiously for getting grass on slippers when I got washing in. I had just returned from Canada, fantastic holiday but I had awful toothache and had root canal treatment in Vancouver ! So I was little fragile, I was told her M I law and husband would sort childcare. It hurt me so badly, being low anyway I cried, and later that was I translated as me being unstable.

However coupe days later ed said she preferred see me and if I was caring for little one while she was at work she wouldn t, that cheered me up but feel naive now as it was the start of letting. Me go.

Were you given reason why you were t needed for childcare was their a row with d I law Smilelss?

Thank you both.

I too have several hundred pounds worth of baby stuff here, which I was told would be needed. Only the travel cot was used on the two occasions she was here. I can still see her, smiling up at me from it's depths! The stair gates, baby walker, push chair, high chair, and lots of expensive toys are just gathering dust. She will be too old for these things now anyway, but I don't seem able to part with them. The buggy that I wasn't allowed to push was bought by me too!

The saddest part of all this is the fact that whilst I still have regular contact with my son, I see a lot less of him obviously. He travels the world with his job, so naturally wants to spend as much time with his little one when he's home.

I would like those people on MN who are making judgements, without an ounce of accurate knowledge of our circumstances, to spend a little time in our shoes. Although, without empathy, that would not make a difference to their patronising and blinkered thinking. I totally accept what they are saying regarding their experiences, and feel for them.. Would that they could at least try to understand that everyone's experience is different, but heartache is universal.

Rosy glow I do feel for you I try hard with my son partner, and I am fond of her, but it is difficult and in your case extremely unfair and heartbreaking for you.

Sadly my son has no children yet but I live in hopes and I know he would never stop me seeing them because he is totally different character to his sister.

I could t bear to read it all on mumsnet but I have now changed my grand daughters blog to private as someone spoke jeering about it.

It seems like a cult of who can be the rudest and use the f word the most.
Yet a lovley member just strolling. By posted on our support thread and gladdened all our hearts so they not all the same,

Hmmm... Rosy, that is strange that they said the baby equipment at your house would be needed and now it has hardly been used. Were there any issues over it? Did you people disagree on brands or whatever? Is it possible they anticipated visiting often and then found it was harder traveling with baby than they thought?

I remember feeling uncomfortable with others holding my first baby, too, except for DH and my own DM. I wasn't sure why, at the time - that Mama Bear thing, I guess. Nevertheless, I forced myself to let MIL hold her and push her carriage, and so forth cuz I thought I should. And if she had bought the carriage, wow, I can't imagine telling her she couldn't push it! But not everybody is like me, I guess. (smile). I can see where that must have hurt, but I still think it may be the Mama Bear.

I don't mean to make light of your concerns.. You may be totally right and DIL may be trying to distance you as much as she can for whatever reason. I'm just saying there are other possibilities and please don't give up yet.

For now, in fact, I suggest not mentioning any of this to DS anymore. He knows you would like your gifts to be acknowledged and reciprocated (if you've told him that) and he can take care of that if he so chooses. Gifts and TY notes, etc. may just not seem that important to him, though - not much you can do about that. Or - does he thank you when he calls? He might think that's enough.

Anyhow, please just enjoy those phone calls and don't weigh them down with unhappy talk. (But you probably don't - I'm just saying that in case...)

Smileless, yes, it's hard for me to understand someone not being interested in their spouse's side of the family. I always was. But I know I've seen some DILs say they just aren't, no fault of MIL's.

It's stranger still, of course, when this change happens after a child comes into the picture. True, schedules change and so on, but I know that's not what you're talking about. Unless there's a clue in something ES has said to you, I just don't know what to think about that. It's just so very sad.

And yes, I know what you mean about being a DIL or SIL and reminding a DH about his mother's birthday and so on. But, apparently, that's not the way some couples see things these days. I was just suggesting to Rosy that this may be why she doesn't hear from DIL, nothing more. Hopefully, she can find some comfort in that thought.

Obieone, thanks for telling us more about Dsis. But I don't quite get what she's blaming your dad for - her breakup with fiancé or her distancing the family (or did she? I 'm not quite sure of that either). Obviously, you still have some contact with her, so that's good. Glad she has love in her life again, too.

Rosy, I've been thinking about you some more and I realize that no matter what hope I try to give you, it still hurts to see your GD so infrequently. How long did the last visit go on though? If it were several days, maybe DS and DIL think that's a lot? Perhaps they intend future family visits to be as long, even if few and far between?

I'm also wondering how those two visits came about? Did you invite them? Did they say they'd like to come and visit and then worked out a date with you? Have you tried asking them to come as a family unit again? If you did, what was the response?

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I'm just trying to get t fuller picture of what might be going on...