Nasty thread on Mumsnet about a Gransnet thread

There's no reason why MN shouldn't read our threads and discuss them surely? It's not a thread about a thread as we're different sites. I enjoy a lurk on MN when I've read everything on here and still cba to get any work done occasionally. I spent ages on the thread about the entitled bride and the £100 gift - it was the best thing I've read in a long time

This one nearly lost me at the first sentence, though - I am NC with FOO. I'd just found the acronym game on here, so my mind was coming up with a few options.

Just been on MN and read the whole thread and found some of the thoughts expressed very insightful.

Non Contact with Family Of Origin Maggie before you start putting your own unique slant on it

Anya! Naughty!
I must admit I struggled with FOO till all was revealed a bit further down the thread!

Ok I will take the bait - I'm a mumsnetter who is estranged from her in-laws. I read the thread about this and came over to look.

Overall the thread we've been discussing just makes me really sad - because it really seems there is no light at the end if the tunnel. We stopped seeing my husband's parents ten years ago now, so our youngest DC don't even remember them. Over that time it seems his parents have laid such a guilt trip on his siblings that they also now hardly ever see us - apparently if they do it causes so much trouble that it's not worth it.

WIthout outing myself, DH's parents refused to stop doing something around our children which is well known to be potentially dangerous. For years we had put up with their racist remarks, homophobic rants, general difficult behaviour, but this was a step too far - so we politely asked them to stop this one thing. Their response was shocking - they were furious that we had even had the nerve to ask, and for months would vary between my FIL calling, shouting abuse, accusing me of being insane, telling my H to 'sort me out' - and then my MIL sobbing that she was depressed and that we had ruined her life by taking her GH away.

For months we would tell them that all they had to do was sort out this one issue - but over time he insults and abuse piled up and we realised for our own sanity we had to stop responding at all.

Stupidly I still sometimes imagine a time when they turn up at our door and apologise for saying I'm mad, that our marriage is over (this was suggested to DH as a 'reason' why we can't 'face' them), that we are terrible parents, etc. And then we will all live happily ever after. Because make no mistake, there is nothing i would like more than for my children to have a relationship with two grandparents who loved them. But i know that will never happen, because they have never, ever admitted that any of the blame may lie with them. We have told them that we just need to see that they are prepared to respect our wishes re the safety of our children. We have told them that if they were prepared to apologise we could start again ans wipe the slate clean. But they have never done this and as the years go on i realise they never will.

So i have a question for you. Why do my PIL have the time and energy to talk at length to people around us, and to still send us long letters, about how miserable they are, how much they miss their GH, and how they wish we would come to our senses, but cannot say one word (ie sorry) that would have stopped this whole shitty situation escalating? If they truly love their GH so much, why would they not stop doing one thing we asked, just when the GH are around? Why would 'not backing down' be more important than seeing their GH?

I also would like to offer some advice, to those who may be interested. If you genuinely want to end the rift with your families, just turn the situation on it's head for a moment. Stop thinking about 'your side' of it for a second, and think about how the other party may be feeling right now. Or even call them, or write a note, saying you're sorry for what has happened, and ask if there is anything you can do to put things right. And if you receive a reply, think carefully about what is most important to you - still being 'in control' or having a relationship with your families.

Married2BlackSheep - I am so sorry to hear that your family have to struggle with this rift - it is never easy.

I can fully understand where you are coming from and your desire to protect your children, which is of course your prime responsibility.

I think that your last point about trying to turn it on its head and "walk in another person's shoes" is a good one. Do you know why your PIL might have reacted with such irrational vehemence over your perfectly reasonable request? What is it in their history or upbringing that evoked such a strong response and all this totally unnecessary unhappiness I wonder.

I have huge sympathy with the aversion to the " racist remarks, homophobic rants" - there is a member of one of my close family's in-laws (I am being circumspect here!) who does that. These wretched people love to wind others up and say these ghastly things just to get a response - when I am with them I totally ignore this stuff and do not rise to the bait. Boy does it drive me mad! The mother of the small children copes very well with it actually - frowning at them when they do it and talking to her children afterwards about what is right and what is wrong. She should not have to be having to do this of course, but she would rather teach her children that you can disagree strongly with someone without falling out totally than see a big rift. The influences that the children get the rest of the time are very clear. She sees it as a good life lesson and I take my hat off to her. I think I would be a lot less patient!

It is sad that your children will not have two sets of loving GP round, but sometimes there is nothing to be done other than put your energies into creating your own happy home, as I am sure you do.

I think the parallel threads on Mumsnet and Gransnet are interesting - we are hearing two sides of the rift. In the end I guess that mistakes can be made on both sides; and when wider families are forced together by marriage, maybe it is too much to expect that they will always see eye to eye.

Hi luckygirl. Thank you for your kind post - I was half expecting a roasting on here!

There is a history my my H and his parents - his father is very old fashioned & military minded. Everything has always been done 'his way' - nobody ever argued with him because it wasn't worth the rant that would ensue. His mother fell into line with everybody else and would always back him up. My husband wouldnt go as far as to say he suffered abuse, but has told me of numerous times that his dad would come home drunk and pull him out of bed to give him a 'sorting out' for various misdemeanours, and times as he got older that he had to stand between his parents to stop his father physically attacking her.

To me, coming from a 'normal' family, of course that all sounds horrific, but to him it was normal.

As his parents aged, and as my H left home, things mellowed and they did start to treat him with more respect. And over time they did manage to have a decent relationship. Then ten years ago we had 'the argument' with them and suddenly it was if he was the naughty little boy disobeying his parents again, and the bridges built over the last twenty or so years may as well have never happened.

This was the first time my husband had not backed down to him in an argument - and we have clearly now been shown what our punishment for that is . I will never understand how being stubborn is more important than seeing the people you claim to love.

I could not agree more with your last sentence.

Interestingly in the family that I was obliquely referring to above, the father (who is by far the worst "offender") has strong links with armaments and the military, which I will not outline as it might become obvious to people who this is!!

I am sorry that your OH had such a ferocious upbringing - my OH too suffered this and never ever stood up to his father who ruled the home with a rod of iron. We never became estranged from them, but our contact was infrequent and politely distant! We cannot always see eye to eye with those whom we are thrown together with in families; but we can stay polite and reasonable. I do understand that there are some with whom it is not possible to reason.

Maybe the folks on Mumsnet might remember that we grans have been DILs in our time!!

Fair point

It's so easy for me to say now, I know, but when i am a grandmother I can't imagine ever thinking anything is more important than having a good relationship with my children, and theirs. The thought of not seeing them would be terrible.

But i am saying that from the point of view of a woman who can happily disagree with her husband without fearing the consequences....

That is so sad for your MIL poor lady. What a life she must have.

The mumsnet thread just filled me with sadness - I didn't feel any sense of outrage that they were being particularly dismissive towards GN contributors......

Lots of people suffering whichever 'side' you wish to look at it from.

Hi

I'm one of the mumsnet posters on many threads involving coming to terms with having to have to go NC with a parent, and prior to that. Including the one that is currently discussing the GN thread.

It is not a discussion about gransnet in general, I have previously found other threads on gransnet useful on other subjects and the majority of the posters I find insightful and helpful.

The estrangement thread I find really really sad. It shows me that there is no possibility of anything but NC in the future.

What shocked me is that the overwhelming majority on there really really seem to hate their children, and there's nothing to show any sort of sadness that the relationship between them and their own children has broken down. The posters only care about their grandchildren and openly discuss "never forgiving them" for the NC.

Where can you go from there? how can it be healthy for a child to witness such hostility towards their parents?

The next thing that, to be honest scares the living daylights out of me and dashes any hope of facilitating contact between the children and their GP, is that the main thing they want conact for is to tell the children "their side" - how can that be in the children's best interests? Children they claim to love? why would you want to use your first opportunity of contact to shatter the peace in your grandchildren's lives like that?

Wouldn't you want to use the time just to spend time with them and get to know them? (if that had been the way things were in the first time though, NC would never have been necessary)

It makes me feel that the GCs are just tools to use against the grans own children. And that is something that I want to protect my children from.

We are not using NC to get at my parent. We have resorted to it so that the children don't grow up learning that destructive relationships is something you keep taking. Surely any loving grandparent would want their GCs learning that for their own future relationships?

We don't bitch about my parent, it is asked about, and I answer honestly, honestly I don't know why a peaceful relationship could never be achieved.

I was hoping to see something different on the estrange thread. I don't know, maybe something showing some degree of sadness about the separation between the grandparent and own their child which would indicate a HOPE of maybe in future the grandparent and parent at least working together for a shared goal of peaceful contact. I saw that from ONE poster only, which is beyond depressing.

Love shouldn't hurt, I don't want my children learning that you can hurt the ones you love and I don't want them witnessing it and being used as tools against us.

I have learned from my other relationships and particularly my MIL that family doesn't have to be a rollercoaster of hurt. These are the dynamics I want my children to witness. This is what I want their normal to be. This is what I want them expecting from their future relationships.

I can understand that - there were times when I had to distance my own children from witnessing the destructive relationship that my parents represented. But we did not break the link, and interestingly they turned out to be better GPs than they had been parents.

I think it is hard to generalise; but I am clear that I do not see the Mumsnet thread as being particularly "nasty" as had been suggested. I think these are all people (on both sites) struggling with difficult decisions and emotions.

Non Contact with Family Of Origin
Thank you for that interpretation Anya, I was puzzled too.

I've heard of State of Origin which is a rugby league tournament but I didn't think the thread was anything to do with rugby

Married2BlackSheep I do feel sympathy for you and can understand.

once posted on the net its there forever!

"I can understand that - there were times when I had to distance my own children from witnessing the destructive relationship that my parents represented. But we did not break the link, and interestingly they turned out to be better GPs than they had been parents."

Yeah, my parent at first appeared to be a better grandparent than parent, and I was delighted. But as time went on it soured and the children were being used in a tug of war agasint me. It wasn't healthy for them. We have a peaceful home and family life when my parents aren't around and that is worth preserving.

What horrified me about the thread was the GPs desire to use any chance they got to "tell the GCs MY side" - rather than wishing to be on the same side as the parents so that any contact re-established was healthy and beneficial for the children. They talked about hoping the children would get in touch so that they can create a "us Vs them" situation by undermining the parents and their decision to go NC, rather than looking to the future and moving forward.

That's not what loving GPs do. That's a bitter twisted version of love that children need protecting from.

And it's depressing to read because it means that there's no hope of a future peaceful increase in contact.

I'm not estranged from my children or grandchildren so I am not speaking from experience.

When I read the thread on here ( and bear in mind I believe this is a long line of threads with some of the same posters so unless you start at the very beginning its hard to say what they have tried to mend a rift) I am just saddened that they have reached a place of no hope in some cases.

To have no hope of a reconciliation because of either side must be soul destroying. I think at that stage it becomes a desperate urge to tell ' their side' of a story to anyone who will listen. Maybe in the hope that someone can share something, anything, that could help them understand how this happened and what they can do about it.

Often family breakdowns are complex, it's not just one thing but always one thing that broke the camels back. I think there is often anger on both sides and once you reach that stage it's very like a bad divorce with both sides standing on their pride and principles, everyone's a loser.

My Gran once said to me , 'pride won't keep you warm on a cold night' in regard to mending relationships. I think she was right.

Notanan

'The overwhelming majority seem to hate their children....' (Can't do italics on my tablet)

That is a very sweeping statement and totally untrue. God forbid your children, for reasons you may never fathom, turn against you. It will engender feelings beyond imagination.

Fairydoll it's not a generalisation, its a comment on that particular thread. There are whole pages about how they feel towards their adult children. It's all there in black and white. Only one poster stands out as an exception. Which is sad. I expected more than one :-(

how can the other posters (other than the one exception) really have expected any sort of healthy relationship between them and their GCs could be facilitated when they're so consumed with venom and revenge towards their adult children or DILs/SILs?

Why would anyone want to put children in the middle of a dynamic like that? they're much better out of it.

That's why the tread was such a sad read. It showed me that NC will have to be permanent and perhaps even stricter to protect the kids.

notanan I haven't looked at Mumsnet, but if it is about the GN thread I think it is, it has been going for a long time, mostly with a small group of grans who give each other support and sympathy.

Various "outsiders" have posted from time to time, giving their opinions and suggestions, but unless they were totally in accord with the "regular" posters, their contributions were unwelcome, and thought to be attacks. Anyone who said that their own relationship with their family is quite different, and points out areas where a different approach might work better was told that they just don't know what it is like, or how their children make these posters suffer. People have actually been accused of deliberate cruelty and nastiness for posting anything that doesn't reinforce their feeings that they have been victimised.

As a result, there is now only one viewpoint on that thread. Everyone knows better than to try to influence them. Count the different poster names - I think you will find that the same few do 99% of tghe posts.

Elgran your post is somewhat reassuring.

I'ld like to think that there are more than the one poster I saw who are NC with their adult kids and GCs who perhaps at least, even though it's sad, appreciate removing children from witnessing volitile unhealthy dynamic (without appointing blame either way for the volitility, either way, whoever is responsible for it in the relationship, the children are better off not being caught up in the middle of it). So that the children can at least have some peace.

I'ld like to think that there are some GPs who are NC with adult children and GCs who would use any future contact as an opportunity to move forward and build bridges, rather than to get the children "on their side".

In fact I'ld like to think that my imagined NC GPs are mostly like that and was disturbed that the gransnet thread implied otherwise

At any rate the direct quotes from GN have been deleted on MN.

It's a shame that the GN admins don't do the same about the estranged thread posts that make children and 3rd parties identifyable (I mean real names, not usernames).

It's just another example on there of the children's best interests not being the priority for those posters.

Married2BlackSheep I have read your posts and they contain some good advice to those whose are estranged (or in danger of becoming estranged) I would like to think that you might be of help to the posters on that thread, and I almost posted suggesting that you put a message on it yourself from the "other side" - but I fear it would have no effect at all on the eentranched positions that some people have got themselves into. Others have tried and failed. I suspect that even a professional counsellor speaking privately one-to-one would not succeed in some cases.

Why did they delete it? It wasn't that bad! [confusd]

Are they desperate to avoid the wars of the nets? Shame. Could have been fun.