MIL - how do I tackle this?

Dear Walterbenjamin You are doing such a good job. Your DH's parents clearly had their own difficulties as children and young adults that they never resolved so these unresolved personal issues have resulted in a very difficult childhood for your DH. You are his rock. What hard work. Family is family and very valued so if you can still manage to visit etc. I think making things a bit shorter and perhaps learning a few suitable assertiveness techniques might help.

This pdf gives a brief introduction to assertiveness. You notice is says self care kit. You need one.
socialwork.buffalo.edu/content/dam/socialwork/home/self-care-kit/exercises/assertiveness-and-nonassertiveness.pdf

You might try broken record record - look for a fuller explanation. When you are refusing something ie a visit, you say. I appreciate that you would like us to do this... However we don't want to make that visit today. As they argue you repeat their main sentiment whilst finishing with your line: However we don't want to make that visit today

Also study what it is that goes so well in the first part of the visit. They seem to be a couple that must be engaged in activity as they can't cope with any personal chat yet if you didn't call they would feel they had lost their son.

Praise the stuff you like i.e. if you are served from a nice tea set that was a marriage gift say how lovely it is, how nice to see it again, lovely bone china so unusual these days etc.

If they discuss the weather you give them some further news on the weather i.e. a cooler/hotter spell is coming. If you want you could lead into what is the hottest spell they remember Was it the summer of? etc.

You might also try tactics such as having some knitting, sewing or tapestry to finish so that in their 'enforced' company you are always doing something. When they are being rude and controlling you would start to count your stitches, or thread your needle etc.

You could call these coping skills 'creative deviance'. Hopefully you will think of some more that will work for you. Good Luck!

You appear to be asking how you can change other adults. The answer is that, not only would this be extremely difficult, but it isn't your responsibility. The only person you can change is yourself, your own reaction and whether you want to continually put yourself in an unhealthy situation over and over again.

If you choose to continue contact (and I quite understand why you would feel this way), then I would suggest you look at how you can change your own reaction. Personally, if someone criticised how I was doing something, I would simply say "I like to do it this way" and, if the criticism continued, I would smile and say "Well, I'm going to do it this way". If you have some coping tools up your sleeve then you may not feel as distressed.

Saying all that though, sometimes we have to remove people from our lives if they are causing so much unhappiness. Ideally, saying what you have to say to your MIL would be the most giving thing to do as you are giving her the chance to reflect on her behaviour, but from what you have said, it seems she is not the type of person who would be capable of self analysis. So your only option is to remove yourself from the situation (which you have said you do not wish to do) or change your reaction to her bullying behaviour.

wendy - you are right, if I said I wasn't seeing them, DH probably wouldn't either. However, That's why I feel it's such a responsibility not to do that, in a way. I want him to have a relationship with his parents, I think all of them would be really sad if it didn't happen. I accept that it will never be the best, most brilliant of relationships and that I can't change them - they are in their 70s! I do, however, need to do something to protect myself from the devastating and constant unsolicited advice, criticism and orders, so minor modifications are what I'm shooting for I guess!

farnorth DH is aware of how difficult I find them - it is something we discuss quite openly, and with BIL and his partner too, who find them equally challenging. I think he finds even the act of discussing them difficult, however. He feels guilty both ways. He is quite self-sacrificing (a result of their upbringing) and gets upset when he thinks there is a conflict between his duty to them and to me, even though I am careful never, ever to frame it as a choice.

emily - that link is really helpful, thank you! I shall gird my loins and give some of the techniques a go, I think. Your conversation tips are also really helpful - I will try to develop more involved lines of discussion on subjects where they are more comfortable.

I like the idea of creative deviance, and it's something I've tried in the past, but the trouble is MIL sees it as a way to offer more advice. So the way I crochet will be wrong, or the tapestry will be wrong. Often, the 'wrongness' is just that I don't do it her way. My own grandmother was a seamstress and I was brought up with very tidy habits of needlework: on a tapestry, it drives me crazy if all the stitches don't lie the same way. MIL gets cross about this and tells me not to bother because she doesn't. She makes such a big deal of it that it puts me in a position where I either have to defy her quite obviously or I have to do it in a way that I find messy just to keep her happy. It is the same in the kitchen, so I always try to do most of the cooking before she arrives to avoid being stressed - it's a bit of a shame, because it's one area where I could really learn from her. She is a better cook than me, but she is just as domineering with BIL's partner, who is the best cook I know.

Even when I try to escape to my garden (which is my pride and joy) to 'do the watering', but she follows me out there when I'm just trying to get away for 2 minutes, and marches around giving me yet more advice. I grow all of my own veg as well as having a pretty flower garden - she never grows veg, yet she assumes this position of the knowledgeable critic on the basis of talks she has attended. So we will be in the greenhouse, and she will be bossing me around, even though she's never had a greenhouse herself and doesn't really grow from seed! I realise it sounds minor, but I feel like even the things I'm demonstrably good at are areas where she is constantly critiquing.

It really gets to me, to the point that I will be angry and threatened and very close to tears after a few hours. I realise that I am too insecure and thin-skinned about this, so if anyone can think of ways of being thicker-skinned, I would appreciate it.

Ooops, x-post with barbs - I think you are right, and I need to work on techniques for not letting it get to me.

BIL has a brilliant, comic turn of singing 'Let it go' from Frozen, when out of earshot!! It has become our act of quiet defiance! I am lucky that he and his partner are lovely and understanding.

I had the same thing happen with my PIL (especially MIL) and after 20 odd years of biting my tongue I finally blew and told her a few home truths. .about how manipulative they were, rude & liked to have things their way.
She was so shocked that I never had a problem with her again..Just wish I'd done it sooner!

It sounds as if you are being forced to take responsibility for a relationship that has so many aspects and such deep rooted problems you will never be able to resolve them. I think you need to take a look at what you can do and what is impossible to fix. You put your DH at the heart of things and think he needs to have contact with his DPs, so a way of maintaining this which isn't too difficult for both of you is important. The problems of communication, the entrenched attitudes and the past history have to be let go. One of the solutions might be to meet on neutral ground. Perhaps suggesting a weekend somewhere in between your two homes would help. If you offer to pay for a hotel perhaps as a special occasion present you would have contact with a room to escape to when you needed to. I do hope you have talked properly to your DH about this and he isn't doing the same as you are i.e. maintainng the relationship because he thinks that is what you want."

trisher We have had weekends at self-catering cottages at a half-way point, and they tend to dominate the schedule in the same way as they do when they visit. However, if we went to a hotel rather than a holiday cottage, that might work better because rooms are more private and it is more possible to get away, IYSWIM. I might try that, thank you!

I promise I've talked to DH - in fact, I've cried on him about it!! I get very tense around their visits, which doesn't help anybody.

shazmo - I suspect MIL would just carry on asking someone to pass the marmalade if I spontaneously combusted at the breakfast table!! I don't think anything would get through!

I have every sympathy as my PIL were older (they had the DH when he was 42 and she 39), from a different generation and totally controlling to the extent that they would lock us in the house when we were there. They, too, were well meaning, generous and kindly in intent. However, I think that they would be diagnosed with some sort of psychological disorders today.

We found that, over the years, we needed to take control and 'manage' the situation, in particular, visits.

We lived 3/4 hours away across difficult terrain and terrible roads. Nevertheless, we eventually limited ourselves to one night stops as no one could cope with anything longer. We had a plan and a schedule for how the weekend would go and then we gritted our teeth to endure whatever ensued. We 'popped out for a stroll' after lunch and/or encouraged a visit to a nearby town, village or historical site to pass the time.

Looking back I know they really adored my DH, their son, and I think they came to realise I wasn't too bad a thing for him. They just couldn't articulate any of their feelings.

I thought about a cottage first wb but thought they might dominate the space. If you choose a big hotel you could even have a room on another floor-they might not even be able to find you.
How's MIL about spas? A spa, a massage and a glass of bubbly might loosen her up.

I agree with dramatictessa, why would you want to let them make you feel this way, then rely on counselling to make you feel better. What about writing them a letter to let them know how they make you both feel. It won't change whilst you allow it to stay the same.wish you well in whatever decision you make to resolve this.

lily - it's brilliant to hear from someone who has been through similar. And heartening to hear you found a way of making contact work, even if it never stopped being hard work!

Because it's such a long way (5 hrs drive and a lot of it down roads smaller than a dual carriageway) there's always this idea that we should go for longer. But it doesn't work! However, if we suggest shorter visits there are howls of protest from PIL - I think we will just have to grit our teeth through those and keep repeating that we're only staying a short time.

PIL are constantly pushing for a whole week away, and I honestly cannot even contemplate how awful that would be. It is, quite frankly, undoable. I feel bad because they are clearly bored and lonely. But it is their behaviour that makes it so impossible! The only way I could go away for a week with anyone would be if DH and I could have quite a bit of time each day to myself, and they would never allow that. Not in a million years.

Christmas is a nightmare, because my parents live a very long way away in the opposite direction. PIL have a strop because we don't always go for Christmas day itself, as if we don't have other family members to consider!

*ourselves, not myself!

My MIL was a nightmare. Resentful, jealous, competitive - her cat was always blacker than your cat etc. She hated our wedding and told anybody who'd listen - it was too posh, should have been more of a knees-up, yawn yawn. Treated me like dirt. We went to visit after the honey-moon; she didn't even know where we'd been and didn't ask. Dominated the conversation with how she'd cut her finger or something. On our way home, (and I still get a funny feeling when I pass the exact spot - on the A1, FYI ) my husband said 'if you never want to go there again, that's all right with me - you are my family now'. I thought about it long and hard but FIL was such a sweetie that I couldn't desert him. So, gritted teeth, onwards and upwards, we persevered. Many many years later I regret my decision. She was a malign influence in our marriage and brought absolutely no pleasure to our lives
or those of our DC. We did everything we could for her and got no appreciation, acknowledgment or thanks. Even a smile might have helped.
I do not always believe that blood is thicker than water and dropping a family member ( as opposed to a friend) should not be deemed an unnatural act. The old cliche is true - as cliches always are - this is not a rehearsal. Life is too precious and too short to allow ANYBODY the power to influence it negatively.
Walt's MIL is clearly not going to change and hasn't even got the mitigating presence of a lovely husband to justify her claim to further consideration. I see no future whatsoever in maintaining this relationship - harsh? -yes / realistic? Yes.
Workable? - who knows?

Sometimes, when you know you can't change someone, you can help yourself by changing your own attitude. Here's what I did when my parents-in-law got on my wick. I decided to accept the annoying things they said. I developed a smile and some stock responses to use in various situations e.g. I quite agree, You are so right, That's such a good way to do it! I'll give your way a try one of these days, etc. Then I carried on as I was, doing things my way and having my own opinions. Agreeing with awkward people often takes the wind right out of their sails. In other words, I decided to stop being stressed and irritated by them. I just accepted they were the most annoying people in the world and it was ingrained habit that would never change. So my advice is to relax around them.

No need to be subservient just acknowledge we all have our ways of doing things and your way is as good as anyone else's (unless hers is really better!) e.g. my mother-in-law's Yorkshire puddings were way better than mine! She was so happy to advise me because I acknowledged her skill and asked for her help! Next time you go to visit, maybe you could ask her to show you how to do something domestic that she does really well? You will have to grit your teeth to do it but get her on your side ? Good luck!

As far as leaving the room goes, I wouldn't answer if they asked where I was going. Pretend you didn't hear ?

Who are we to judge your iLaws when you are so negative about them. I do not like the way you describe them. I think you feel that you are far too superior to want to have anything to do with them and I admire your husband for wanting to have contact with his parents when you say he has been treated so badly by them.
No one if forcing him to see them. Presumably he loves them and wants to see them.

You say that you don't think that MiL means to be anything other than well meaning so why can't you just be nice to her on the few occasions you see her.

I am very sorry to hear that you have been so unwell. DS and DDiL have been unable to have children and although at the time it was devastating for all with all the failed IVFs, time has been a great healer and with busy jobs and dogs they are now living happy lives and enjoying life again.

I imagine it was something your husband ate in the restaurant which made him vomit. At 44 your husband is a grown man and can make up his own mind. You say that you do want him to retain a relationship with his parents so you will simply have to have a bit more patience with them when you see them which isn't that often, not as if they lived in the same area!.

You come across as being a bit snooty towards your iLaws. They may not be as sophicared as you are but is that such a dreadful thing!.

Life is far too short so stop looking down your nose at these people and treat them with some respect. Their in their 70s so won't be around for that much longer.

They put up with you but that's something you probably havn't even thought about.

gemma - I absolutely support the relationship my DH has with his in laws. I think it's really important for both sides that it continues. I am a bit shocked that you could think anything else, as I thought I had made that clear.

It wasn't something my DH ate. It used to happen every single time his parents visited: he would get terrible stomach cramps and then vomit. This was the only time it ever happened. In the end, we went to the GP, who diagnosed an extreme anxiety reaction. That is one of the reasons why we paid for counselling for my DH to talk through his issues.

If anything, the snobbery in the relationship is all the other way. PIL have made it very clear they think I am not of the right class for DH (my family are working class). I don't let it bother me, as I think it reflects more poorly on them than it does on me, and it's what DH thinks that matters.

I do think you're right that I need to be more patient when I see them. I do think that shorter visits would really help with this! I can put up with being bossed about for a day, but any longer starts to grate!

Sorry, that should say "This was NOT the only time it ever happened".

It took me a stupidly long time to recognise the pattern, though. It was only on the fifth or sixth visit when I was listening to DH vomit that I thought 'The only thing these occurrences have in common is that they are here!'

It has stopped since counselling.

I think that accusing the OP of snobbery and superiority towards her PILs in unfair and cruel.
It is very clear from her post that things are totally the other way around. She is the one being patronised. She is putting up with a load of crap from her DH's parents and clearly has been for a long time.
I think she deserves a medal. And if I knew how to do it on the iPad, I would send you flowers, Walt - armfuls of them.

Not a bit of inverted snobbery!.

I am sorry to hear that they think you are not good enough because of your background as that is just so silly of them.

For what it's worth try to make your own life as interesting as you can and just put up with them for the sake of your husband. I just cannot understand why he want's to see them more than once (maybe twice) a year if they have such an extreme effect on him. ??

And for shorter rather than longer weekends.
I agree that if you don't want to cut off from them learn some assertiveness techniques to protect your own self esteem. Practice in easier situations first though - you don't start to get strong by climbing Everest. Then you can work up to something along the lines of:
"When you're a guest in my house I would like you NOT to tell me how to cook."
Getting the non-verbal side right is half the battle. Good luck.

People sometimes need support to cut bullies out of their lives but it can be a very positive thing to do. Their are different kinds of support and if your DH would not see them so often if it were up to him alone maybe that would be better for him. Obviously everyone's circumstances are different but I will always remember the surge of relief I felt when I realised that I didn't have to keep my father in my life and I would have found it difficult if anyone had tried to persuade me that I should.

Aw, thanks for the flowers!

I am not sure I deserve them, though. I try to put up with it, but I get upset by it and sometimes I've gone to the loo and just sobbed. I have had a lot of good advice on this thread about how I can manage my own emotions better, and I think that those people are absolutely spot on. I hope I keep that upset largely private, but I do fear I come over as frustrated and rather near tears sometimes. I think someone who really deserved armfuls of flowers would be one of those composed, graceful women who is unflappable and always gracious in the face of a challenge. I would love to be like that, but I am not naturally confident and my medical issues and changes to the way I thought my life would pan out with children have left me more sensitive and thin-skinned than I used to be. I feel like layers of skin have been removed and I am raw, so even small things that I'd have shrugged off in my early 20s hurt now. I realise that I need to do something about this and that it is my responsibility. I am just not sure where to start, if you see what I mean.

Gemma - thank you for your kind words too. Even though there is a history there and even though he gets really anxious, at bottom my DH love his parents. And even though they boss, control and generally fuss, his parents love him. It's just that they are still stuck in the role of being parents to children, with the result that they treat us as children still (I'm 38 and DH is 44!). They have never made that shift to seeing growing kids as rounded adults with their own preferences and ideas. I had hoped that having kids ourselves would help shift this, but sadly that won't happen now. I guess every time I am bossed around like a child it is a little reminder of that, which may be why it hurts more rather than less as we've found out that we can't have children of our own.

Gemmag I think it is you who is wearing the Judgy Pants here. You know nothing of the OP who seems to have moved heaven and earth to try to maintain a relationship with a v. difficult MIL & FIL.

I could fill a ten page thread myself with tales of some of the dreadful things MIL did and said to myself, her only child, her husband and her DGC, but we did manage to 'do our duty' by her although we were 'damned if we did, dammed if we didn't' from the day we got engaged until the day she died.

Although her death was very traumatic for my DH (she collapsed in the hearse at the graveside during my FIL funeral and died that evening) within the week following my DH had 'taken charge' arranged her funeral, started clearing the house etc and realised that he was free at last from being criticised for every single thing he did or did not do. His self confidence grew by the day and he became at last the MAN was/is now, instead of the useless, frightened, untalented, unlovable little boy he became after every visit or phone call with his mother.

I am sorry that I have no neat answer to offer. You have to decide for yourself if YOUR need to fulfil your duty to the older members of the family (especially as they become more frail, and probably even more difficult) is greater than YOUR need for a peaceful and harmonious life.

Dear Walterbenjamin - for the one week away I would recommend a SAGA holiday with everything included. You could go to some nice place in Maderia. You might choose Funchal close to the shops. Saga have trips out. You could choose a hotel with a massage and sauna where you book for your session. As you are younger you might walk along the levees which might be too taxing for PIL who could go shopping. there are some botanic gardens and other things to see in Madeira including handcrafts. If necessary you might tell Saga that you did not want your room on the same floor.

When you know that relationships are going to be stressful it can help to take a 'Kalm' tablet first thing in the morning and if necessary as per the packet. When my parents were going through a difficult time, as my father's health was failing, and I was visiting monthly for a weekend, I found that on the Sunday, the day I left to return home, they created all sorts of emotional traps. A day of Calms made sure we left without a row and me doing what I intended. I would say I was leaving after lunch but would accept tea and cake at 3.30 and then leave.

I'm glad counselling helped DH over his anxiety. In the end we are responsible for our own emotions and how we handle difficult people. There are books which include smart tactics, survival guide and dealing with difficult people. Put these words into google and you will get a plethora of book titles.

Once you have a strategy you will feel a lot better and there is just a chance you will start to smile as PIL perform to expectations. We had 2 bullies at university as tutors for social work placement as the pair set off questioning my motivation in their usual derogatory fashion I laughed, they stopped. Another student subject to the same behavior left the course.

granny - I'm so sorry you lost your inlaws in such a sudden and shocking way - it must have been a very hard time for both you and your husband.

It's interesting that you saw that change in your DH. I can relate to that, though in a slightly different way. I met DH at work and knew him as a very bright, gifted and self-possessed person, who was universally liked and respected by colleagues. He continued to be that when we started dating. But then I saw him with his parents, and he reverted to being this terrified little boy, completely and rather terrifyingly unlike the work person I knew. I started to realise that his strategy for dealing with them was radical compartmentalisation. In the whole of the rest of life, he'd be himself, a grown man with a fair bit of responsibility - with them, he'd go back to being a child because that's all they allow anyone to be. I think one of his anxieties at the start of our relationship was that I would 'break' the compartmentalisation by being both a figure from work and a figure from his family. So he was very reticent at the start!

So, as a strategy, this works most of the time, particularly as we don't see them that often. But recently DH got a big promotion at work and as a result of that he has to do a public talk. Quite often, parents come along to these things, as well as the whole department and some members of the public. Now I'm just sitting back and watching how he plays it. At the moment he's clearly trying to kick it as far down the road as he can, because he knows there's this moment coming up where his worlds are potentially going to collide. His inclination seems to be not to invite his parents at all - he has said openly that he is ashamed of them and their social awkwardness, but I personally don't think this will reflect badly on him, only on them, and that colleagues will probably be quite understanding of their foibles and even more sympathetic to him as a result. Part of me thinks it might be a good thing for his parents to see him in full work mode, and to understand the magnitude of what he's achieving, and maybe have a chance to feel a bit proud? I do wonder if they might treat us less like children if they witness him in highest gear?? However, I will ultimately go with whatever he thinks best!