Difficult relationship with daughter

P.S. If D accused you of trying to "play the victim," that, I imagine is cuz, quite understandably, you were trying to explain your side of things. But for whatever reasons, she's not ready to see that and wants to be the "only victim," herself, though she may not realize that.

This is why I suggested the simple apology that doesn't include any explanations or justifications. But you seem to feel you've tried that too. So again, space seems like the only "answer" to me now. If in time, D comes around and is willing to talk w/ a "listening ear," then great. If not, at least you'll still have a life of your own that doesn't hinge on whether or not she accepts and understands you.

Please focus more on your relationship with DS and enjoy that. I'm sorry he was so hurt by your X but glad he's there for you.

Once again, I'm so very sorry about this, Vintage. It sounds to me as if Maggie is right - both you and your children have had difficult childhoods for different reasons. And I'll add, your X seems to have effectively split the family down the middle, w/ him and your D on one side and you and DS on the other (no fault of yours). Perhaps you and D both need some space from each other - you to heal and move forward, her perhaps to do some healing, too, but also to get to a place where she can speak w/ you calmly and civilly. I wish you all the best as you move on!

Vintage, the hardest part is always knowing when to stop trying. Then dealing with any guilt for letting go. The decision was made for me earlier this year when I reached the point of nearly having a breakdown. I had to see my doctor and take some anxiety medication. My advice is not to reach this point. You've left the situation showing love, kindness, integrity and a willingness to let your daughter know you're there for her. She's responded like a moody teenager. At some point, she'll perhaps mature and see things differently. At the moment she can't so there's not much you can do. xx

Thank you Nina and Luckylegs. I have decided not to try again as I feel my daughter would see my desperation to save our relationship and rub her hands together with glee. My last text to her was to say 'when you are ready to talk contact me I'll be here. Remember I love you and always have. It's very sad the way things have turned out, maybe in time we can sort things out. Take care love always' the message I received back was 'stop playing the victim it's boring' So I can not possibly try again. It's best left as it is. I want to now concentrate on my own life with my lovely partner and be supportive to my son and DIL as their new born will be going to intensive care for a while once it's born.
I will look into U3 A as need to fill my time up by keeping busy.

If you really must, do as Wendysue suggested and send one more e mail, but please stop being a victim, you shouldn't have to take it, you did the best you could at the time, we all do, your children were loved, not neglected or abused in any way, you should be proud of what you did, not what you couldn't do in the situation you were in. How could you have acted differently? You had no choice. Try and pluck up the courage to concentrate on you, book a holiday if you can afford it or join something locally with other people, something that interests you, the U3 A do classes on so many things for very little outlay. Your son sound lovely and you raised him, remember that.x

I typed the above on an iPad so please forgive the errors. No one should speak to anyone in such a way. I hope you can set new boundaries Vintage. When you've tried for so long, sometimes your only option is to step outside of the problem and move in a new direction. Nothing cuts the bond, but you need to be free of any emotional abuse or at least make it clear that you no longer will allow it. X

Vintage, I've repeatedly tried for 10 years. Nothing changed.Now I've discovered freedom. I've also found long lost relatives who had also been cut off so I've reinvented the word 'family'. I am over the mood swings, the blame, the not speaking, being sworn at, the Christmases, birthdays, mothers days where I make all the effort but it isn't returned, the building bridges one more time only for them to be detonated, the broken promises, 'oh yes, I definitely want this to work as long as its my way or the high way', the 'one more time' or 'this is your last time to redeem yourself', (remind who speaks to anyone, never mind their mum, like this)????? Answer? A fool. Reclaim your life Vintage. By rejecting your daughters treatment of you, you are teaching her to value and respect you instead of how she's learned from her father. Xx

Maggiejane I have thought about family counselling many times but my daughter has always refused. I was going to suggest it again yesterday if she spoke to me. But until she does speak to me I can't ask her. I don't want to appear desperate to her as she will thrive on that, she is a clever girl so picks on your weaknesses and turns them into strengths for her. I know I sound awful with what I'm saying, but if you knew her you would understand where I'm coming from, she has had a good teacher in her father. I sadly was a weak parent because I had my strength knocked out of me by my ex husband. I don't think she has post natal depression but reactive depression, I also don't think she is truly fulfilled in her marriage either, she has never said that its just me looking in from the outside.
How many times can I keep saying sorry and how many times do I allow her to keep bullying, abusing and controlling me. I have to have some self worth its not acceptable behaviour in my book. If it does continue it will kill me in the end. But this is my personal opinion and of course everybody thinks different. My childhood was awful but I have dealt with it by having 9 months of counselling and now I can actually speak to my parents and don't have any feelings of hurt. I'm not sure I will ever have a full blown heavy relationship with them but at least I can be in their company at family gatherings without feeling uncomfortable. I can honestly say I never envisaged being in this position with my own flesh and blood. I feel very sorry for my daughter but I can only help her understand if she'll allow me to support her. But this isn't going to happen anytime soon.

I agree with * Wendysue * it's worth one more approach before you back away. You don't say how old your daughter's baby is, could she be struggling with post natal depression?

You acknowledge that your childhood has caused you lots of problems in later life, your daughter's childhood also sounds troublesome so, presumably she is coping with similar problems. Have you tried going to family counselling together?

You are absolutely right Nina about my daughter learning to treat me the way others have treated me. This has been ultimately learnt from her father as he use to mentally and physically abuse me and my son, but put my daughter on a pedestal. I in turn tried to protect my son from his father and didn't need to protect my daughter as she was safe. This has been interpreted as me favoritising my son when all I was doing was protecting him. At the time I didn't have the courage to leave him as I was so scared. I waited until I finally built the courage with the help from my doctor to leave him. I also think my daughter is worried as my son and his partner are having their first baby next week. I think she believes I will favouratise my new grandchild. This is absolutely ridiculous as I adore my little granddaughter and I will always treat them exactly the same, I feel so blessed having two little treasures.So I don't think the up and coming birth is helping my daughter either. I do feel so much better today and have smiled again.

I do agree with you Wendysue about not asking to see my GD. I definitely wouldn't as want to make sure things are better between myself and my daughter before I would contemplate asking to see my GD.

Thank you x

Vintage, your daughter isn't communicating herself to you in a constructive way, she's dumping her anger on you hence it's now a bullying situation. You are doing the right thing by stepping away. It might get even more tense because your family have become used to treating you in this way so they may object to you trying to set boundaries and change. But you don't need anyone's permission to free yourself from this kind of treatment. You're in charge of the volume.
Hopefully your daughter will realise she has to speak to you properly. It may take a while before she can see things differently but she will evolve too. It's doing no harm to pull the shutters down and make yourself unavailable for a while.
Also, you don't need to defend of explain yourself. xxx

This has been going on for the last 2yrs Wendysue and I've broken down in front of my daughter on more than one occasion, saying how sorry I am for the past and how I live with the guilt every single day of my life, but I can't change it. I tried let's try and move on and think of the last five years that we became close and build on it. I don't think I can keep saying sorry when she knows how devastated and sorry I feel about the past. I have also asked her brother how he felt as he has had exactly the same up bringing from me but not from his father and he has said my daughter is out of order. Because his eyes he always had food on the table, clean clothes, warm clean bed to sleep in and I was always there to take them here, there and everywhere. In actual fact he was very much rejected as a child by his father and later when he got to 17 he was cut out of his dad's life and has never spoken to him since. Whereas my daughter was put on a pedestal by her father and I have always been there for her. I could write a book about my life with my ex and parents.
I did try yesterday to talk to her calmly and I yet again got a load of abuse like " stop being the victim it's boring" "listen to yourself ffs (swearing)" so I'm not prepared to try again. I have told her that I love her and always have and when she is ready to talk I'll be here. I feel I can no longer do anymore than that. Sadly my daughter has changed so much since she got married I suppose we all do and in many ways it's for the better and I'm pleased. But when I find out from my upset DIL that my daughter's husband says it's ok for my daughter to keep punishing me, I begin to wonder how much of this punishment is through him as I've been divorced 16 yrs nearly and its only been the last 2yrs that things have gone terribly wrong with my daughter. I also don't think my mother has helped as she is feeding my daughter and competing with me. It's not supposed to be a competition or is it! When she did call and said she didn't want to fall out with me, all I said to her calmly was I was just hurt and again I got a load of abuse. I'm in my 50's and feel like I am being bullied, abused and controlled by her and I so need to remove myself from this situation otherwise it's going to kill me. I will miss my GD terribly but I see no other option until my daughter is ready herself. Thank you so much for your advice and hugs. X

What you need to do and indeed will learn to do Vintage, is step far enough away so that you can act with integrity. Your first priority is to your own emotional and mental wellbeing, which sounds as though this is now being supported by a kind partner.
You are right to tell your daughter how you feel, it's the only way she's going to know when you are hurting. Obviously there's a way to do this, calmly is generally best.

I have found that one way to express any repressed feelings is not to bother too much trying to explain them to deaf ears or those people who have hurt us, but to release them in other, more beneficial ways. I'm a published author but I also do another job which allows me to be highly creative. If you look at ways to turn ugliness into beauty, light into dark through your work or some other form, you will soon start to heal and bloom.
Your daughter has learned to treat you from how she's seen others treat you. But if she's getting counselling, hopefully she will change in time.
For now, work on you. xxx

Just want to add, if you do reach out to DAU, I don't think you should mention wanting to see GD, just yet, as she might think that's the only reason you're contacting her. It may be hard to hold back on asking to see GD and on trying to explain yourself, but I'm very sure you have a better chance with just apologizing briefly and simply.

Meanwhile, glad you now have a supportive partner! You deserve that kind of love and support!

Oh, Vintage, my heart aches for you! It sounds as if you've been made a target by both your mother and your X and DAU has fallen into this pattern. (((Hugs)))

But I'm glad she's in counseling and maybe that's why she reached out. I wish you had simply accepted that instead of voicing your hurt (she already knew she hurt you, I'm sure - that's why she reached out). I understand why you did, but, unfortunately, it set things back. IMO, it would have been better to just say, "I don't want to fall out either, I love you," and not point any fingers, but oh well.

As for your past apologies, understandably they were filled with attempts to defend/explain yourself. Unfortunately, some people see these as "false apologies" and DAU might be among them (sigh).

But that means there's hope. If it's possible, I would reach out to apologize one more time, even if only by email - this time without the explanations (she knows those). Just a simple apology, saying you're sorry for the past, wish you could go back and change it (she knows you can't but may need to know you'd like to)and that you love her very much - that's all. See if/how she responds.

If she does what you did and starts telling you how you've hurt her, please don't freak out the way she did. Just listen and make supportive comments like, "That must have hurt" or "That's so sad" or even, "Awww honey..." - whatever rings true, but again, no defensiveness, as it will just backfire.

Beyond that, I agree with those who say to move on and with Nina's beautiful advice to nurture yourself. I just don't think you should give up hope for a relationship with DAU and GD till you try the SIMPLE apology.

More (((hugs!)))

Glad to have been able to help. Been here in a roundabout way x

Vintage, you're welcome. Your story mirrors my own. You'll never regret letting go of all the emotional hurt. The real 'you' will emerge in time and life will begin again. xxx

Just to say Nonnie and Nina, my partner says he applauds you both 100% and says thank you x

Thank you so much everyone who has responded. I'm in tears here, because I now feel I'm not alone and although very sad for us all, it's so nice to hear from people who empathize because they too have been through similar. I'm truly overwhelmed by your wise words and will take your advice and get on with my life. I haven't had a relationship with my parents for over two years I don't have any emotional attachment towards them and to be honest I feel so much better. I now definitely need to do this with my daughter it will be hard but I need to do it. I feel so sorry for my lovely partner he has told me the same as you all have, but it's hard hearing it from him. That's why I turned to gransnet for advice. I now feel so much better and will concentrate on my relationship and go and find myself. As I really don't know who I am anymore. Thank you again big hugs to you all.

Also, when you step out of the situation, you eventually get a birds eye view where you can look down and see what's really going on. This is good because it helps you see thing things from a distance and shows you how to change yourself and start moving yourself towards people and situations that treat you better. It's habit breaking, pattern ending and transformative. xx

Same here Nonnie. Very hard to do but very liberating too. xx

nina59 I think we are one and the same. I did exactly what you did and the day I let them all go was the day I started to live again.

Excellent advice Nonnie. It's true, the happiest families I see are those where generationally, everyone is included. This shows children how to value relationships with their wider family.

But it only takes one controlling, or bitter, jealous, angry, dominant family member to create the cancer that rips families apart with their malicious whispers, then you've got no option but to free yourself from being caught up in that net.
It's called alienation and you are being ostracised. Worse still, you're trying to fit back into a very hurtful and cruel situation for you.
If they don't want you in their lives, grant their wish. Go and fix yourself in the process. Recover from all that hurt you've gone through. Learn to be independent.
I know I make it sound so easy but I have gone through it and I've had to get away from it all to find out who I am under all their labelling.

You're not hurting anyone by leaving but you are hurting yourself by staying. Your daughter will come and find you if she wants to. Meanwhile before you let her back, make sure she treats you like a human being. Sending you a hug. xxxx

I'd like to echo everything that has been said to you Vintage. Everyone is singing from the same song-sheet here.

One thing I would like to say to you is that your children have to make their own way in the world and if this circle of negativity is allowed to carry on ad infinitum, it may well affect the way future generations view relationships, and that is not healthy.

I think if you can find something to do which takes up the majority of your waking thoughts, this family thing will stop dominating your life.

Also the point about your daughter not wanting to let her father or grandmother down is a valid one. If you release the pressure for her, you might start to feel some peace at last.

let her come to you, in her own time.

((Hugs))

Vintage, I read your post and wanted to respond because your situation is similar to my own. Sadly, some families just have no ability to move their thinking higher. They can't communicate and unfortunately, when the gains are all about controlling the love and affections of others, there are winners and losers. Your ex husband and your mother have played the game of control for such a long time that your daughter can't see through it. What's worse, she may not want to for fear of them disapproving which they most certainly would if it meant maintaining their control.
The best thing you can do is remove yourself from all the game playing and the major players including your mother. Just distance yourself from them completely. Get on with your own life and start looking for ways to evolve in yourself. For starters, you need to work on accepting and nurturing yourself as a worthwhile person. So far, you're getting repeat messages that you're some kind of loser and failure. This is not who you are. Take 6 months out from all of them. It's hard and you may have to discipline yourself to stay away from them but it's worth it because at the end of the 6 months, you'll have a new perspective. Invest in yourself, find something that you're good at and mix with people who make you feel good about yourself. While you're doing all of this, steer clear of your critical family members. Doing this will help you build higher self esteem levels and once you start valuing yourself more, which is an art after being treated like you're nothing for so long, you will be able to employ new skills, such as asserting yourself more. Avoid getting into the battle, 'he said, she said' It's just a rabble making noise. Stay out of it and don't even try and defend yourself, you can't when they're all up against you. Don't apologise if you know you're not wrong, it will keep you positioned as the doormat and they will simply carry on walking all over you.
Walk away until they can treat you like you're a human being. You deserve better. We all do. xxx