Regrets about being estranged from people..

Anya, you described my own mother perfectly. I went to counselling for years and had more than one tell me to cut off contact with her. I decided against this but moved to another country (continent!) and even then I would get occasional letters and later, emails that would leave me shaking and sobbing like a child. BUT when she had a stroke at age 83, I immediately rushed to her side, and we had two wonderful weeks. It was like the illness took the meaness out of her, and she was sweet and loving, we shared some happy memories and laughed a lot and I am so grateful for that. There were only 4 people at her funeral as she had driven everyone away. But I am at peace with those end of life happy memories. (And ironically, this same scenario has just happened to a dear friend of mine here in England! I know we are both lucky, as illness and death cannot be planned for such things.)

I'm glad this thread has come up, as I have a problem and I don't know what to do.

I haven't spoken to my sister or her family for about 8 years now. We had a huge falling out over nasty things they said about my younger daughter and her partner, who was originally their friend. (He is quite a bit older than my daughter but also quite a bit younger than my sister and brother-in-law.) Basically, my sister had always had a massive and very obvious crush on him, and was incredibly jealous when she found he was in love with my daughter. She spread all sorts of lies, her sons got involved and were very nasty, and the whole thing ended up in us becoming completely estranged.

As a result of this split, I somehow found the courage to tell my family that my sister had sexually abused me for about 5 years, until I was 10 years old. (She is 5 years older than me, so it went on till she was 15.) I had kept this secret for 50 years and tried to convince myself it was ok, but it wasn't and, after I had told my family, I became very upset and ended up having a year of counselling. That helped enormously and I made peace with the past and the end of that relationship.

However, an old friend of myself and my sister, who lives near them and sees them regularly, has recently written to me and asked me to reconcile with my sister. He says he "makes no judgement" about our argument, which is good because he hasn't heard my side of it and I know her version will have been lurid and untrue. Obviously, he knows nothing about the abuse - only my most immediate family know about it. He says my sister is willing to "draw a veil" over the quarrel and resume our relationship. What should I do?

On one hand, she is my only sibling and we used to be very close. There are things about her that I miss, particularly her humour. We are both in our 60s and in poor health. If I won't see her and she dies before me, will I feel guilty forever?

On the other hand, I can't see how the relationship could work. I can't see her interacting happily with my daughter and her partner, and one of her sons said such appalling things to me that I really don't want to see him again. However, I might be able to find ways round these issues, but I have faced the past and can no longer tell myself it was ok. I can't confront my sister - I just can't - I know she would deny it, say I was insane and spread horrible lies about me. I don't want to undo the work I've done with the counsellor and I don't know if I can pretend to myself that it never happened.

I haven't answered our friend's letter because I don't know what I should do. Sorry about the long post.

Firstly don't rush into any reconciliation. Yes, this estrangement from your only sibling isn't ideal, but 'used to be close' is just that, it's in the past. She has behaved appallingly towards you when you were a child and towards your family.

You might have to live with feelings of regret if she dies. You shouldn't feel guilty, you are not in the wrong as far as I can tell. What you will feel if she dies is regret for what might have been had she been a true and loving sister.

I am living with the knowledge that I chose not to visit my sister on her deathbed. I don't regret that decision, but I am strong enough to deal with it and I had enough loving family around me who accept that was the right decision.

Could you reply to this old friend - who has, after all, stuck their neck out to contact you on the subject - thanking them for their concern, but saying that they know only one side of the story, and that you really don't feel that YOU can draw a veil over the past - all the past - so you will not be acting on the suggestion.

You could acknowledge that it must have taken a lot of thought for them to write to you, and you hope that they will appreciate that you have also put a lot of thought into your decision.

'I can't confront my sister - I just can't - I know she would deny it, say I was insane and spread horrible lies about me. I don't want to undo the work I've done with the counsellor and I don't know if I can pretend to myself that it never happened.'

That isn't normal. Normal people don't do that. You're so brave!

Your 'friend' is what is known as a flying monkey. Your sister has told him her side of the story. How hurt and upset she is. The toxic person gets someone to do their dirty work. Google 'flying money narc' and you'll get more information.

If I was you, ignore it.

Bluecat I feel the "drawing a veil" comment is not really appropriate - presumably you would want some kind of indication that she is sorry for her behaviour towards you as a child and the horrible things that were said re your daughter. As you say, the friend does not have the whole story and may think it's just a family tiff that has got out of hand.

You say the abuse continued for 5 years until she was 15, which presumably means she was 10 years old when it started. That seems quite a young age to engage in coercive sexualised behaviour and I wonder if there is a chance that something similar had happened to her?

If, deep down, you feel the pain that your sister and family has caused you might bring you more pain and lead to further discord, then I agree with Elegran that it might be a good idea to write to the friend who contacted you, along the lines she suggests. Though, as Anya said, it would probably be a good idea to think about it for a while before making any decision.

I think Elegran’s suggested response is perfect and also agree with Anya's advice to give it some thought before replying. The old friend obviously has the best of intentions, but the phrase “willing to draw a veil” suggests that Bluecat’s sister is portraying herself as the victim and takes no responsibility for her actions. The sisters were close in the past, but I think once there has been a really serious fall-out, it is virtually impossible to turn back time and re-create the former relationship.

We have estrangements in our family and I totally agree with Anya’s description of the characteristics of the people involved. I used to think they also had a need to be right, but I realise now it is actually an unshakeable belief that they are right and that anyone who doesn’t agree with them is the cause of the trouble. They will often triumphantly reel off names of family members who agree that they are the injured party, but often the relatives in question are in contact with both parties, and are trying to make fairly non-committal comments in an effort to keep the peace.

The OP asks if there are regrets when there is a death. We have had estrangements in our family in previous generations and I would say that attitudes do sometime soften in that situation, but it is mainly because the person who has gone cannot cause any more hurt and is no longer seen as a threat to the happiness of other family members.

Anya

Your post at 0811'this morning absolutely describes my sons partner. She has all of the characteristics you describe. It has been a year since she detached herself from my DH and me who have only ever shown her kindness and goodwill, yet she has accused us of 'bullying' and many other nasty things - all lies in an attempt to turn our son against us. She behaves like a petulant teenager and yet she is in her mid thirties and a mother! It took a while for us to come to terms with the fact that she is the bully.
In recent weeks she has made certain 'gestures' via my son which could be interpreted as a 'reaching out' but I cannot go through again what we have endured from her in the past. Leopards don't change their spots and I'm certain that even if we were to reconcile there would be more of the same somewhere down the road.

Good post Anya!

I think sometimes it's sometimes better to learn to deal with the estrangement. I don't think attempting a reconciliation with my sister was a positive thing. we got on ok for a couple of year's (mostly because I kept biting my tongue). He has a very sharp way of speaking and is very corrective and I began to realise that she made me feel worse than when I was alone. I realised I was wasting my time when she jokingly told me that she had had two bullying complaints at work but neither had been upheld. (She is a social work supervisor For some reason I thought that she only did it to me because she was copying our father. Now she makes manipulative comments to our mother about how I don't keep in touch now I no longer need her despite the fact that last time we were together I said that I didn't like the way she spoke to me and she said 'well we don't like each other do we'.
If an estrangement is causing regret then there probably has to be attempt to bridge it but I think there has to be a reason to believe that things will improve. Some people are just difficult and they have to be in someone's family. It's just bad luck if they are in yours.

Madamecholet

Can't believe I'm saying this but I absolutely agree with your post!! (Ha ha...)

Specifically, when you suggest these people believe they always right, and its everyone else's fault.

Ocassionally we all might think we're right and others are wrong, but rarely do we go to the extreme of estranging ourselves just because we see situations differently.

I would add that low self esteem can be a factor in estrangement - cannot cope with anyone who disagrees - so cut them off.

My sister decided to distance herself from me which was very hurtful as, though we have differing views about many things we are similar and have much in common. Also, we are, after all, sisters. After years of ignoring her cruel treatment of me I found that appeasing her made her worse not better. Once she sent me a birthday card with 'Once a cow always a cow' printed on the front and I cried all day. I have never been a 'cow' but looked after her when she was younger and my parents were undergoing a hostile divorce and neglecting us. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot take any more and am dropping the contact.

I feel, though, that it is a horrible waste and cannot begin to understand her state of mind.

We are estranged from some of DH's siblings. They were toxic when young and no different now. My dear old Mum summed one sister up saying "she could start a fight in an empty room"!
Well she and the other toxic sister are not making fights with us any more! We simply just keep out of their way, mercifully one is abroad, not that that stops her attempts with toxic phone calls. DH now just ends call.
Funnily enough it seems they thought it was the rest of the world at fault. . . .they never saw they were the common factor in any problems?
Best avoided I think, very sad, but it's the choice of folk who choose to live like this.

Anya not only have you managed to describe my d.i.l. in great detail but sadly our ES too. Although not all of the 'attributes' you've listed apply to him, many of the them do. I was quitewhen I realised that was the case.

I regret and always will, our estrangement from our son and the inevitable estrangement from our only GC. I regret that I'll never hear him say 'mum', that I'll never be able to give him a hug, that we'll never again have the wonderful relationship we once had (or did we). Most of all I regret that I couldn't reach him, that my love for him wasn't enough.

Fairydoll, I am glad we are in agreement.

I totally understand why you are wary about the apparent “reaching out” and your feeling that it will eventually just be a re-run of what has happened in the past. I have been in that situation myself and I agree with Jaycee that sometimes the only solution is to accept that some relationships are never going to work and move on. Easier said than done though and it is always sad to have to accept that a previously close relationship will never be the same.

Thank you all very much for your wise advice. Our friend's letter was a bolt from the blue and reduced me to tears - he put it inside my birthday card! - and I think I'm going to have to write back along the lines you have suggested. My daughter, the one targeted in the original argument, has said that she will support my decision either way but is worried that, if my sister came back into my life, all the unhappiness I dealt with during the counselling could come flooding back. Her older sister agreed and, having read our friend's letter said, "He seems to think she is graciously forgiving you - tell him to f**k off." I wouldn't go quite so far, but I do wonder whether my sister asked him to intervene or if he has just decided to act on his own initiative. I suspect that she has made him feel he has to do something, without actually asking him outright - she is incredibly good at manipulating people.

Eloethan, I have asked myself many times whether she was abused herself, and I have talked about it with my counsellor, and I have come to the conclusion that I don't think she was. I remember, when I was small and I asked her why she did these things, she told me that she got the idea from watching me touch myself when I was a baby. As an adult, of course, I understand that all small children explore their own bodies out of curiosity but, when I was 5, this just made me think it was my fault. The main reason, though, why I don't think there was an adult involved is that my sister has always had a very strong sense of the dramatic. She admits she enjoys an enormous row, even though they leave everyone else feeling awful, and when she is angry she will say the most terrible, hurtful things. There has never really been a line she wouldn't cross and I am pretty sure that, if someone had abused her as a child, she would have denounced them, maybe after they were dead and probably to their nearest and dearest. If our situation was reversed, I don't think she would have waited half a century to say something, and I guess she would have said it in front of my family. I don't know whether that makes her braver or crueller than me, but it is just the way we are.

Thank you again, all of you.

I'm so sorry - with me it was DD1, who managed to split the whole family with terrible lies which led to an innocent man spending 17 months inside and destroyed her sister's close relationship with her half brother. We now have no contact with either DD, nor with my GS and it breaks my heart. I tried to build bridges, but DD1 was never going to be reconciled. The awful thing is that she was always mean and spiteful and I don't know what I did to make her that way.

Ok please don't jump down my throat because this is a genuine question.

8Can sexual activity between two children only a few years apart in age be termed, "sexual abuse"? What age difference would you all consider big enough to render it, "abuse" rather than simple mutual exploration? Would it depend upon the age of the, "perpetrator" more than the age difference? You see, from what I can see of Bluecat's story I would have said that a 10 year old, "abusing" a 5 year old was a bit of a grey area. Did that 10 year old really realise what they were doing? Certainly by the time she was 15 absolutely, no question at all!

I only ask because what would you think of a 13 year old, "abusing" or "experimenting" with his 9 year old sister? I realise that there is only a four year age difference not five but I, personally, feel that at 13 he should have known that what he was doing was deeply wrong. I have had it drummed into me that it was just one child playing with another and that I'm overdramatizing.

As I say, really not passing judgement or anything just interested in everyone's opinions.

So sorry for your experience, Bluecat I really feel for you.

So many sad stories, but what a supportive thread. The best side of GN.

to those who are and missing loved ones and to those who've made the decision to move on.

Our posts crossed notyetagran

What you describe is sexual abuse.

Luckylegs9, you've just written what I could have written myself. I really really don't understand it... My parents were pretty awful (very awful infact - mentally and physically) and I could never imagine even contemplating cutting them out of my life... And to then have the threat of being cut out of peoples lives myself overy quite trivial matters... How do people manage to do it... It's so difficult for me to understand.

thanks for your post,

Jem

Angela1961, my situation is something similar to yours and my heart is breaking into two. It's been about 15 years now of a slow awful decline in the relationship. Not on my part. I've overlooked an incredible amount of contempt from my daughter but just recently she said she no longer wants to have contact with me. She is my only child. I have fought SO hard to make things right.. I don't think anyone could have fought harder for her.

Even now, all I'm concerned about is that SHE will have to live with the regret, when she gets older, and realises the damage that's been done.

It's the worst, worst pain...

Jem

Thanks radicalnan, you've just confirmed something that really upsets me too.....the memes of 'if people bring dramas into you life, walk away'.. The problem with that mentality is that no-one is perfect, and we all should tolerate each other and learn to live with each other, imo.... Life's too short to be cutting people out of your life or you kids lives.

notyetgran - I know what you're saying, I just find it hard to understand...but I can defo hear that you've suffered in trying to deal with difficult people..

Jem

Bluecat, I would give it a go. That's a horrible orrible situation you faced with her as a kid, and then later on...but it seems like a part of you wants to close the door on that and see if there's anything left NOW....to build any sort of relationship on. If it was me, I would.. but I'd also keep it at arms length for a while..

Jem

Smileless2012, how have you coped day after day with the estrangement from you son? It's one of the toughest asks in the world, I think, to 'ask' someone to cope with being estranged from their child (adult child)..

As far as 'toxic' people go, I don't think I've ever met anyone who doesn't have some level of toxicity, or some level of pain the in rearness about them... Surely we shouldn't be automatically judging whether people fit OUR lives...and instead be accommodating people who..now and then..might brush us up the wrong way...but who are otherwise, family..

Jem

jemimavintage and others - reading these posts has made me very sad as much of the behaviour described is very familiar to me.

I expect that none of us want to be estranged from people, but there is only so much that one person can take. From my experience, these are damaged individuals who want to make their problems your problems - it's always all your fault.

I had a toxic mother and once - when she told my DH she wanted a reconciliation - he made it known at my request that I did not want this. I rejected the idea because her behaviour over the years had made me find her repellent.

I never regretted the decision because I knew she could not change, would refuse to recognise how hurtful she had been and even though I'm sure she knew she'd caused the problem, she would never admit it. Drawing a veil over it wouldn't have been good enough for me.

jem and others - only you can work out if a reconciliation is what you want. If you think the people concerened will start treating you with respect in future, it may be worth a go.

It's probably been in another post, but what price forgiveness? Some people say you feel better for it. I think "accetance" - as many have said here - is the best that can be achieved - and after years of abuse, even that is hard.