Continued support and fun aspects too of rebuilding lives after estrangement can't believe 4 years and we still here to offer help, friendship and support.TWO

Eglantine you cant suspect your DIL based on something hdr mother did. you have a good relationship with her so far, just try your best to keep it that way- no need to change your behaviour though, being yourself has worked so far.Estrangement is really difficult for everybody to talk about so take comfort in the fact that she's confused in you about her family & realise there may be other issues that she's not quite ready to disclose yet. I'm not saying the estranged children are always right either just that there is always a reason or reasons that parents on here seem unwilling to consider

Eglantine - you sound like a very sensible woman and I think you will do your best to keep things amicable - which is all any of us can do. Hopefully, as your almost-daughter-in-law is a bit older than many she will be aware of the distress that estrangement has caused in her family and that will encourage her to avoid it too.

If they were being selfish then they would keep their parent around (for babysitting, financial help or whatever).
I will repeat - an estranged child gains nothing at all from cutting off their parent- so you saying it is a selfish act makes no sense.
they may have been influenced by a partner but why did their partner feel the need to cut you out? when they gain nothing either - remember, ultimately the decision lies eith yiur children.
If their we're issues between yourself and your children's partners then look at those- deep issues with in laws are absolutely going to affect the relationship between parent and child ad your children's loyalties will be with their spouse, as it should be.

I'm sorry I seem to have opened a can of worms. I'm sure everyone has their reasons bugsy but sometimes those reasons are quite puzzling to others. What started my worry was the story of the initial estrangement, by the Mother, over what I thought was so insignificant. Basically the elder daughter spent her first married Christmas at her parent in laws house. If estrangement can happen over something like its no wonder that people are bewildered and worried that they might unwittingly cause offence.

I think that in many cases their decision is purely for selfish reasons - often influenced by a controlling partner - and not based on anything the parent has done.
In "the real world" this does happen

I was talking about Yogagirls grandchildren actually. there's an elder one that has a different father that she clearly favours to the younger one that is biological of EstSIL (As Yogagirl herself highlights on numerous posts). if you seriously think that your children have woken up one day and decided to cut you off for no reason you are deluded - in the real world that does not happen.
I also am sure that your poor children will be as wounded by this estrangement as you all are - but you all fail to appreciate that. estrangement is hurtful to absolutely every family member.

Anyway I've not commented here to cause upset as this is a support thread but if any of you are truly wanting to reconcile with your estranged children then I believe a whole change of attitude is needed. I know some of you say that you've given up but as a mother myself I very much doubt that, you all must secretly hope for reconciliation - it would be unnatural for you to feel any other way.
I feel for you all (and your estranged children) and I hope that one day you will be in touch with your families again but I honestly think that the majority of you are going about this completely the wrong way - letting go of your bitterness may be a good first step.

Having thought about what I just wrote - I originally took it that Bugsy was saying Yogagirl is obsessed with her estranged daughter to the detriment of her other daughter and now I think she meant the opposite. Apologies if I misunderstood that though I must say that I have not picked up on any indication that Yogagirl favoured one over the other

Bugsy I can assure you that when someone is cut off from a family member the very first thing they do is to look inwards.
I am afraid that you are back to the old old argument whereby someone who has not been cut off cannot believe that this can happen without justification.
I would probably have believed that myself until it happened to me.
I have no intention of going into any more detail about this yet again. Those us caught up in these situations know that we did nothing wrong - we are not deluded - we have examined everything that has gone on in great detail before reaching this conclusion.
Incidentally I suspect that Yogagirl talks mainly about her elder daughter on Gransnet because this is the only place she can talk about her - that doesn`t mean she doesn`t have a full and loving relationship with her other daughter

luckylegs I only commented as I thought the OP wad given truly awful advice- she's so far had no indication that the DIL is looking to cut her off and she was advisrd to take a step back, be cautious, only visit when son is home etc... if she does that then her currently good relationship will quickly turn sour.
I say there's a lot of bitterness on this thread because there is (I exclude smileless), you all seem so bitter towards the children that have cut you off. have you once stopped to consider their feelings in all this? absolutely nobody wants to be estranged from a loving parent and the children must have felt no other option but to cut you off. The same struggles you all have at Christmas and birthdays etc I guarantee that your children feel too but there is something stopping them from reaching out. To claim that you have no idea why this happened is astounding. there must have be indications for a long time before they took such a drastic step. I don't want to call anybody out but it's clear from Yogagirls posts that she's obsessed with the elder child but indifferent to the other - and I as a stranger can see that - surely that was an issue for her ED too?... I think you all on here need to look inwards before reaching out to estranged children again. see if you can find what the problems where and whether you've changed.

Smileles and CelebEnjoy your time together. Out of something nasty comes something nice. And for goodness sake have a toast on us and buy some shoes.???

S and C - I`m going to phone up Betty`s and ask them to keep an eye out for you - have a scone for me!

Fantastic Smileless and Celeb! Enjoy your time together. Have a wonderful day (and night).

Poor Celeb and Mr. C. it was gone 11.00pm before they got to the hotel so it was midnight when we finally met face to face for the first time.

Celeb and I just had the longest of hugs; it was wonderful, really wonderful and now we have all day and tonight to enjoy.

Bugsy555, I don't know why you say bitterness, just people a bit stunned and hurt by being cut off from their beloved children. No be is saying distance yourselves, but tread a bit carefully where there is a history of using no contact within a family as a means of sorting problems out. I don't think you could be estranged, because if you were you would know how deeply it affects us. I never gave a moments thought that I might not be part of my daughter's life, she was everything to me, as our children are. Trying to make sense of it when you can't get to sort things out is harder than you might think. If you have a solution as you can get anyone that won't communicate with you, to do so I would welcome it.belueve me to come to a forum like this you have tried everything.

Oh, I agree that if they really want you out, they'll cut you out, no matter what. But, imo, it's good to know you didn't cross any boundaries.

Celeb the ring is beautiful! And Rosie is so cute!

Mr.C's letter tugged at my heartstrings. I wish he hadn't written the part about life being short, however, b/c ed might have seen that as an attempt to guilt her into contacting you, and that might have turned her off. But she probably wouldn't have reached out to you, anyhow. You were sent away when you tried to see her when she was ill. No reason to believe she would get in touch now that you're having an operation. Sweet of dh to hope, but my hope is he doesn't do it again.

Hope you have a good time, Celeb & Smileless!

Welcome Eglantine! I'm not estranged, fortunately, but I know a few GMs who are. In every case, as pps have said, the problems began with the arrival of the first baby. So I agree, as much joy as a new gc brings, that's a moment that can cause drama, too.

And please don't assume ds and dil won't have any babies due to their being in their forties. More couples today are starting their families later, even at that age. You can't know for sure, one way or the other.

For now, since you get along with ds and dil, I would just keep doing whatever you're doing. IF there is a baby, imo, you should follow the advice given here about NOT criticizing the parents or giving them advice. As Fairydoll says, even if it's asked for, it can lead to problems. But especially don't give it if they don't ask for it. I would add, don't question their childrearing practices either - just accept them.

Dil's family history worries me, but just a little. If you can stay out of any family drama, I think you'll be ok.

I think you are right bugsy that I shouldn't make judgements based on what has happened in her family but I think Smileless gave good advice to just be myself and the casual approach suits me well and I hope them too. I would only visit on an invitation. Usually it's to see a play or exhibition, something we would all enjoy so it would probably always be the two of them.
I think I've just got myself in a tizz!

I'm sorry but I think that the advice you've been given here is awful and could be detrimental to your relationship with your son and Dil.
If you truly want to stay close to them then please don't put distance between you all intentionally - don't start visiting only when your son is home and don't mistrust her or judge her based on issues within her extended family. Do try to get to know her, do try to spend time with her without your son and do try to love her in the same way as you love your son. people find it a lot more difficult to cut out people that they have a good relationship with as opposed to those they have a distant or indifferent relationship with. embrace her and it will benefit you all.

the only person that gave half useful advice on this thread was smileless, but from reading previous posts she also seems to be much less bitter then the rest of you.

Yogagirl, you do what I do , looking where I had perhaps done something that caused the total severance from family. The truth is there doesn't have to be reasons, they could pick on anything because for they have decided life would be better without bothering with parents, we are surplus to requirements. It makes me question myself quite a lot. It is always worse on anniversaries, birthdays and Christmas for example, the truth is it has been so long now I can barely remember the good. I have been told, don't dare ever, to make contact, you are not wanted. Can't get much blunter.

Eglantine, it seems all the warning signs are there. Just hope your dil has seen the misery that nc brings and is determined she will be doing things differently. Some families cannot sort minor problems out, it is so much easier to blame someone else for difficulties and vilify them. My daughter cuts people off, the family then have to take her side, there is not a member of hers or husbands close family that haven't been cut out at some time. I remember her cutting her best friend off, she had been her best friend for 20 years, it took her 4 years, but eventually they resumed their friendship. It is so wearing not knowing when or where the axe will drop. I would keep it light and see how things pan out and hopefully she turns out nothing like her family.
Smileless and Celeb, hope you are together at last, perhaps enjoying a much needed drink.

My advice Eglantine is just be you and if you can try not to worry about what might or might not be. As has already been said, if you're going to be cut out there's simply nothing you can do about it.

Enjoy you son's new found happiness. It's great that you have what you describe as a "casusal friendship sort of a relationship" as I think that bodes well for the future.

You're right Luckylegs about the difficulties that can arise from your AC marrying into a dysfunctional family. Our ES did that all right.

Well Mr. S. and I have arrived at the hotel but poor Celeb and Mr. C. are caught up in terrible traffic and are still about 120 miles away. How frustrating is that!! Good job we'd booked for 2 nights or how will we be able to fit all our shopping in.

Just can't wait for them to come through the door, into the bar of course.

Thank you for your replies. I don't think there will be any babies as they are both in their early 40s. I had begun to think he would never find someone he wanted to share his life with, so I am delighted. My DIL has been married before, over 20 years ago but that's another story. I really don't have any grounds for being apprehensive except a kind of gut instinct that I could get it wrong without meaning to.
I think too that if someone wants to fall out with you they will and you can't prevent it really but I will take all your advice on board I've had quite a nice casual friendship sort of relationship with them so far and that's what I'd like to continue.

I agree with Eddiecat and Yogagirl. You can behave like a saint but if someone wants to cut you off, then they will.

Also, a baby arriving is a critical time for inlaw relationships. As already advised, be very cautious and be extra careful with what you say. NEVER offer advice (even if asked for!) and keep your distance - which should be easy as a lot of distance separates you.

Of course, there are plenty of 'normal' families around but if you happen to become related to a dysfunctional one through your offsprings marriage/relationship, it can be a minefield. Proceed with care.

Footnote:
I actually was doing all of the above in my last post, I never visited at the weekend or evening, only during the week when he was at work. I always sent an invite to his family when I had a party or Xmas etc, always sent them b/day cards, Xmas card, they never reciprocated, I didn't make anything of this, just thought 'Oh well!'

But when my now estD & her husband had their big argument, where this estrangement stemmed from, I continued to visit during the week days, as before, but he had lost his job [again!] so he was there! I now wish I had said to my D to come to me, that I would pick her & the C up, to be out of his hair! If I had of done that.... But then he did run up the stairs when I arrived, so very weird, he was peed with me for helping my D during their big fight, why I don't know, as I was bigging him up the whole time, saying he was a good dad & husband [not].

I agree with you Eddiecat on all counts.