Should we interfere?

I’ve been following this thread with interest and curiosity but as soon as I heard he was an architect it started to make sense. Some architects are more like artists than other professions and don ‘t seem to realize they’re running a business.
I know one, married, but fortunately without children. He would spend ages chatting to clients but didn’t actually do much business and was always broke. He would borrow money from other family members, but his wife managed her own money, and sometimes went on holidays without him. I think she knew him well and refused to let him squander her money! He was also very charming, but just not a businessman.

I would suspect he has a gambling problem. We know of someone who has gone through thousands of other people's money. Outwardly charming, utterly ruthless and a totally convincing liar, he's strung his parents and friends along for years and they have done the worst thing possible - loaned him money to delay the day of reckoning. He created companies, registered his mother as company secretary (she had no idea), quoted their address and destroyed their credit rating.
While you provide holidays and financial back up, the situation will continue. It needs to come to a head and your daughter needs a wake up call.

Thank you Farmor15. I hope it turns out to be as simple as that in our case.

JimmyRFU why don't you just say NO to your son, he can only live off you if you allow it!

Huge alarm bells after your information that your daughter offered to manage his books customers etc and was refused Are you all such naive/ nice/ benign people that you have spent five years propping up a ‘failed’ businessman who tells you he is ‘terribly’ busy As others have said you and your husband are enablers it’s really hard not to want to help your grandchildren and daughter and I understand it totally but a bit of detective work is long overdue You said something like I ll let you know if we ever find out in a previous post of yours which makes it sound as if you will never be any more forthcoming and will just carry on as it is wondering and paying out

Just to add the excuse you made of maybe he has thousands of university fees to pay back is not valid as you only pay back when you earn a certain amount is it £21,000 pa or somewhere in that vicinity and surely that’s something he would be proud to use as an excuse

I would say from what we know about this senario this man is a con artist and he has landed in the lap of luxury with not only his wife, but his in laws running round after him, Sounds like a nasty piece of work to me!!!!

I’m with Farmore15 on this one. I, too, have known a self employed architect who had to almost beg his clients to pay up. So unless he took them to court, which he never seemed inclined to do, he sometimes didn’t get paid for work he’d done for months after, if at all.

Is it a peculiarity of architects that they are unable to make their customers pay? Everyone else who works manages to make sure they get money in return. How strange.

The RIBA has a standard contract for architects that includes stage payments at certain stages of the work, including small jobs. If he got people to sign that and followed their recommendations, then he would probably not have as much problem. It is the kind of work where jobs can take a long time to come to fruition and getting stage payments on time is vital. He has to be prepared to put a stop to the work until payment is made. Even if he isn't managing the project, people don't want builders to know that they aren't making payments on time.
It sounds as if he is a one man band. It is difficult in that case being the person who is trying to bring in clients and the person who is being tough with them but it has to be done.

I suspect MissAdventure that a lot of them do have this arty other worldly side to them and basically they are helping other people spend their money on something very expensive.

Belinda49 how about trying to check him out with the RIBA, you could ask for a list of Architects in his area and see if he is on it, or phone them up and ask if he is on their list. He may just be an Architectural Technician which is a different thing.

I can understand how worried you are belinda but I don't think that hiring a private investigator would help the situation - if your DD found out you had done it could damage your relationship with her irrevocably.

Certainly you need to speak to her, it is very strange that she doesn't know exactly what he is doing all day on his computer; if he rarely goes out then I doubt that he will have another family hidden away somewhere.

He could well be running his architectural business from home, but surely that would involve a lot of going out, meeting clients etc. It can be extremely difficult to get money out of clients and many a small business has ended up going bust because of cash flow problems. If he is not insistent on staged payments then this could have happened and he has tried other ways and means to try to make money.
Online poker, share dealing on line, bitcoin gambling - all good be lucrative or equally could lead to enormous debts which he is is struggling to repay and is reluctant to tell your DD about.

Your daughter needs to be more assertive in finding out exactly what is going on. Do they have a joint bank account or does she have her own? Whose name is the house in? You say her salary is enough to keep them - lots of people are managing to do just that without the luxury of flights, holidays etc, so explain to her that you are there to support her but not financially.

Would it be possible for you to have the children a couple of days a week so that she doesn't have to pay nursery fees for those days or are you still working yourselves?
If you feel you do need to support her, perhaps you could buy the children clothes and shoes - but not hand over money.

You need to speak to your DH and to your DD or else this could just go on indefinitely and you could end up with an impoverished old age yourselves.

'could' not 'good'
should have spellchecked!

sponger man that made me laugh Oldmeg

In answer to people's questions, I'm glad to say the house is in her name and she has her own bank account. We don't live near enough to be able to help on a daily basis. We're at best 2 hours away. We already buy shoes and clothes for the children without being asked.
That is the pleasurable part of grandparenting.
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that he has credit card debts. My daughter's friends (now his too) have good jobs and he must want to be seen as equally successful too. He may be very artistic but he is not at all assertive. At the very least he needs a business partner to carry out the parts of the business he can't cope with. He does go to site visits and client meetings. He may well be an architectural technician and not an architect but he does produce plans for extensions all over London.
As D has to cope without his financial assistance she could reasonably throw him out but doesn't which indicates that she must want them to be together though most of the time she's exasperated with him.
We will not have him investigated as we would lose our daughter if she ever found out. Seeing how much he loves his two children I can't imagine that he has more elsewhere and never sees them.
I take the point about not having to pay back the student loan as he doesn't earn enough.
We must leave D to sink or swim and make her own decisions. My main problem now will be to avert arguments with my husband who always wants to top up her bank account.
Thank you all for your help. Without being able to write this down and see your comments the financial situation might have continued indefinitely. I was feeling very stressed by all of this but now everything is clear in my mind.
I no longer need to know what is going on with him. My daughter's a big girl and will have to sort out their mess.
This doesn't mean that she can no longer rely on me to listen to her woes but that I shall try not to let it bother me so much. They are their problems to work out together.

Good thinking Belinda - and to be logical, credit card debt is the most likely explanation.

"This doesn't mean that she can no longer rely on me to listen to her woes but that I shall try not to let it bother me so much. They are their problems to work out together."

But you could suggest that they go to Relate.

"We must leave D to sink or swim and make her own decisions. My main problem now will be to avert arguments with my husband who always wants to top up her bank account."

Groan (about dh wanting "to top up her bank account)! But could you and he compromise (i.e. agree to a smaller amount in the future? or to tapering off rather than stopping all at once?)

We will not have him investigated as we would lose our daughter if she ever found out.
I agree with that.

As D has to cope without his financial assistance she could reasonably throw him out but doesn't which indicates that she must want them to be together though most of the time she's exasperated with him.
It is still often assumed even these days that the man should be the main breadwinner even if the woman works too; however, in many cases the woman may earn more than her partner.Being exasperated is not a reason to throw someone out unless the relationship is really at rock bottom - even then they need to talk this through, for the sake of the children too.

The debts, if he has them, are the most worrying so if your daughter expresses her exasperation to you again, perhaps you should tell her to speak to her OH and really get to the bottom of this. Perhaps he is trying to hide it all and hoping it will go away - but it won't unless he faces it.

Some people are quite 'airy-fairy' although they may be very good at their jobs. Perhaps he just isn't charging enough and he sounds as if he does need some help on the business side.

Your DD may need to 'let off steam' but this is something she has to sort out with him and as long as your DH keeps handing over money, he is enabling the situation and stopping them both facing up to their problems.

I dont think you should pull the plug on her ,just restructure the financial aid so its repayable .If she knows it has to be repaid and by a certain date it might give her the push she needs to sort her OH out .Good luck with YOUR OH ,my daughter is the apple of her dads eye and he would give her anything she asked for without question...and has .I wouldn't want that relationship to be harmed ...just regulated .

Yes Farmor, I thought that when I read 'architect'!
And thank you Belinda for taking the trouble to come back and let us know how you have taken on all this advice. I think your course very sensible, and once you start thinking that way, you may be able to take the next step in some weeks / month to come.

In fact, having been able to unpick it, the 'block' is largely your DH, and I wonder what it would take to pull him up short. Might it be you saying you are going to protect your own money & assets before he gives it all away?

I also wonder (because this is how I think) that whilst he hands over money, she is still his 'little girl'.
You haven't mentioned other children - that would seem to me to be a big factor in saying 'enough is enough, we have to be able to help our other child/ren'.

I wish you luck and am glad gransnet has been of help.

We are currently employing an architect to design an extension and deal with the problems arising in the planning process. He submits bills regularly and we pay them because if we don't he doesn't do anymore work on our design. Simples!

How does your DH know when to top up your daughter's account. Is it a joint account between him and his daughter. We have no access to our children's bank accounts or have any idea how much money they have in them.

Way to go Belinda.

Belinda49, how lovely that you feel you have been able to work this through to a place where you are comfortable - with a bit help from other grans. I do think you are on the right track. Good luck and enjoy your precious little ones. ?

I'm feeling much more optimistic about the situation thanks to the varying comments from Gransnet members. I am now determined that it can and will be sorted one way or another. Thanks all.

Well done Belinda
I don't know how old your DD is, but DH is of the firm opinion that, after they have had a good education, they should stand on their own two feet.
I was rather more indulgent but there is a limit to it.