Support for all who are living with estrangement (2)

There was a piece and phone in on This Morning today about estranged grandparents.

If you feel it necessary to repeatedly ‘challenge’ statements made on these threads

it was smileless who invited the challenge of alternative interpretation

I didnt challenge posts about individual's circumstances on this thread where it wasn't presented as such.

Missed it Katy how did it go?

Hello everyone haven't been on for a while and my goodness. Such a shame that this thread seems to have once again got sidetracked,any way, there has been some very good things going on as well, and being me I would rather focus on those. Our grandchildren's voices have now been heard at the highest level, a Minister says, the system is not working and needs changing. Those changes won't happen over night, as some papers have suggested, at the moment it is at consultation stage and there is still a great deal of work to be done, and it is not Grandparents Rights, the phrase the papers like to use all the time, but the Rights of grandchildren to a loving and caring relationship with their grandparents.

That's good news isn't it Minty. There's talk of making the process easier so that GP's don't have to ask for the courts permission to make an application for contact.

The current process means that GP's can fall at the first hurdle. There's no proper investigation to see if applying GP's are genuinely unfit to see their GC and if this isn't the case, and permission from the courts isn't granted, there's no where left for the GP's to go.

It's more often than not suggested that this is about GP's Rights. There's already an inclusion in the Children Act that children have a right to know their extended family, which of course includes GP's.

I think it suits some to use the 'GP's think they have rights but don't' mantra to portray GP's as pushy and unreasonable with no thought as to the welfare of their GC.

This is about the rights of the children who in some cases, are being denied their right to know their GP's by their parents, who've decided that they no longer want a relationship with their parents.

I see Katy has already mentioned it. I caught the segment on This Morning about grandparents being denied access to their grandchildren/family breakdown.

There is a phone line open - for a few days only - for support and the programme's own legal advisors are available - if you feel you need legal advice.

Thanks for the info. Day6.

The problem I have with blanket GPR's that are allowed even for intact families is that in many cases (not all) the GP's are essentially saying that the parents do not have the children's best interests at heart.

I recognize that there are cases where a relationship is genuinely in the best interests of the child (e.g. child lived with the grandparent due to the parent being physically/emotionally unable to care for them, parent is not a responsible adult, parent has taken the child away) but I know for myself if grandparents had blanket rights I might be afraid to allow my child to have a relationship with my ILs. Now, I know that MIL and SFIL are lovely and I don't think they would go for GPR, but FIL certainly isn't (although I don't think he would go for GPR simply because it would be too much work for him).

As a parent, I get to decide what's in my child's best interest. I think in many cases (at least in the ones with which I'm familiar; may not be true in every case) the parents have chosen not to have the children around the grandparents because the grandparents have unrealistic expectations. There's also the question of what qualifies as "estrangement". We see my parents once every few months, because they live 4 hours' drive away. We see my ILs once every few years because they're a 9-hour plane ride away. What frequency of visits does a grandparent deem reasonable? If I were working as a nurse in the hospital, full-time, I would get every other weekend off. If we dedicated even one weekend a month to visiting grandparents, that would be half our family time gone. (Fortunately I work in academia and only work two Saturdays a year by choice.) If Hubby and I are able to have more children, I'd like his parents to wait at least 2-3 months before coming to see the baby. Reason being that they would be coming across the ocean on an airplane (germ factory) and I would want my baby to have first shots to prevent him or her from getting sick. Pathogens can vary depending on the area and even if a person isn't actively sick they could still be carrying something dangerous. I have little doubt that his parents would be reasonable about this, but what if a grandparent decided that wasn't fair and it was their right to see their grandbaby the moment he or she was born? Would that be a case for grandparent rights?

Why do you insist on addressing the issue of GC being able to have a relationship with their GP's as the right of the GP's agnurse?

The rights of children to know their extended family which includes their GP's is already enshrined in the Children Act. What is currently under discussion is an ease of procedure to make it easier and more affordable for GP's to seek permission from the courts.

This isn't about the right of a GP to see their GC the moment he or she is born. This is about the rights of C to know their GP's. Rights which are currently being denied these children because in many instances, the C's parents have decided that they want nothing to do with their own parents, so their C can't see them either.

It's possible for C to see their GP's where the parents have minimal contact with the GP's. I know of a situation where this is the case.

Smilesless It was interesting but very sad as all these cases are. There was a couple in the studio whose dearly loved son, who they said they were very close to all his life, had cut off contact. He met a girl, they had a child and suddenly the son told the parents he wanted no contact and threatened them with police if they tried to contact. I know there are two sides to every story, but these people genuinely could think of nothing which could cause such a rift. Then there was a phone in with people coming on asking for advice in their own particular cases, one of which was a granddaughter who had grown up and wanted to contact her grandparents but her own parents wouldn't tell her where they were. The lawyer answering the problems is called Vanessa Lloyd-something (sorry I can't remember). She is a campaigner for grandparents' rights. You may be able to get it on the Iplayer.

It was very sad Katy. I felt for the grandparents. I think some people have issues like envy, needing to be right, needing control. As they say, some people could pick a fight with themselves in a phone box. It takes all sorts but making the children pawns in family disputes seems mean. I know all cases are different and there are two sides to every story, but...... <sigh>

I say that only because I sense an atmosphere between step son and us now his GF of 15 months has moved into his flat and has said she wants them to have children. It's very strange. Even OH who is very easy going and doesn't notice much in terms of atmospheres has said his son seems more distant and GF is quiet and rather moody if we are ever invited around to their flat. e don't feel terribly welcome. Of course his loyalties will now be with his GF but she is extremely terse at times with him, and we've noticed he is very compliant. She is controlling and he may be ok with going along with it. Who knows?

He is a grown man and we are keeping quiet. No idea what developments to expect!

We've stepped back and will not encroach. Their lives are theirs to sort out and we are always here for them.

However, this development (which must be tangible if OH has felt it!) meant I could relate to some of the stories I heard on the programme this morning.

Smileless, I felt so sad reading your story and I cannot imagine the pain it has caused you. It's baffling that our own children can change so much but I have heard similar tales and I do sympathise with all the grandparents here who find themselves in such difficult and hurtful situations.

Thank you Day6.

You're right to keep quiet as nothing you say will make any difference I sincerely hope that doing this, stepping back and not encroaching will work for you.

I can't see how that young ladies parents refusing to tell her where her GP's are is going to do their relationship much good Katy. I hope she finds her GP's for her sake as much as theirs.

We had a poster some time ago who'd never known her maternal GP's. Following her mother's death she did some research and learned that her GF had died alone, just a few miles from where she and her mother were living.

She also learned that the reasons her mother had given for the absence of her GP's were lies, especially the things she'd said about her F, the GF.

I remember her saying she didn't know if she'd ever be able to forgive her mother for never having had the opportunity to know her GP's.

Some of these estranging parents who deny their children their GP's should be aware 'that it's a tangled web we weave when at first we seek to deceive'.

We don't plan to have FIL meet any future children. I do agree, though, that when the children reach adulthood, it's a good idea to at least explain things to them in greater detail. At that point, whether or not to see the grandparent becomes the responsibility of the adult grandchild.

Hubby and I are open to a reconciliation if FIL acknowledges what he did and offers sincere apologies. Sadly, FIL has been this way all his life, from what Hubby recalls. Perhaps more sadly, the odds are that FIL will not live to see any future children of ours grow up. He has chronic lung disease, likely secondary to years of smoking both conventional cigarettes/cigars and marijuana, and according to our other extended family he does not look well.

Hubby allows our kid to have a relationship with FIL (she's 13 and she's actually my stepdaughter, so I don't feel I have the right to say anything) but Hubby has access to her email and Facebook and can see any contact they have. Sadly, FIL has made minimal attempts to reach out to her.

It's a shame agnurse that your FIL is not making much of an effort to keep in touch with his GD.

It says a lot about your husband that he allows her to have contact with his father and he is of course right to see from emails and Facebook exchanges the nature of any contact.

Demonstrates that it isn't always necessary to block a GP's access to their GC.

Smileless

The reason that Hubby allowed DSD to continue a relationship with her granddad is that she's old enough to be able to distinguish truth from baloney. (FIL once tried to guilt-trip HER for not contacting him frequently enough!)

I do not plan on serving up any future children to him until they're old enough to do the same. He CERTAINLY would never be given alone time with any future children.

I genuinely believe that most parents don't refuse the children a relationship with the grandparents out of jealousy or controlling behaviour. If the grandparents are refusing to adhere to reasonable boundaries, throwing guilt trips left, right, and center, and bad-mouthing the parents, I don't feel it's reasonable to allow them to see the grandchildren. I (and many parents) are concerned that the children will believe that the bad behaviour is acceptable because "Grandma/Grandpa does it, and they must be a safe person because Mom and Dad let me be around them". One of the reasons FIL doesn't get to be around future children is because he tried to destroy Hubby's and my marriage. Would you want your children left alone with someone who did that? He's also insulted me to my face. Again, would you want such a person to be around small children?

No agnurseI wouldn't have wanted my children around anyone like that but as we never were, or never would be like that it, it does nothing to alleviate the pain of our loss.

I know you genuinely don't believe that most parents refuse the children a relationship with GP's out of jealousy or controlling behaviour but many do. Maybe not most, but many.

That is the reason for our estrangement; unbelievable to some I'm sure but a horrible reality for us.

I remember that post the lady in question had no way of knowing whether her Mom had been telling the truth or not because there had never been any report probably because of the age of time that the situation occurred in. Also the grandparent was now dead and people rarely have a head stone with “here lies a nasty person” on it.

I remember thinking that it’s a shame she thought like that because on the other side maybe her mother was just trying to protect her daughter and thought that what she had done was for the best. Which is why we all do and sometimes parents lie for the best of intentions.

The danger with Internet forums is thinking that something is the norm when it is not. Estrangement is not the norm it feels like it is to you and other people on this forum because it is what you hear about. I used to work in a very specialist area of healthcare and it would be very easy for me to think that something was normal and happened all the time when in reality it doesn’t.

I don’t know you and if your conscience is clear you have my upmost empathy for your situation.

Children already have it enshrined in your that where possible there should be a relationship with the extended family for example divorce but most of the time it would be the responsibility of the parent who has contact at that time, so in the case of the father who has contact every other weekend and one night during the weekend grandparent contact would occur during that time.

Otherwise the system works well when the grandparent asks for permission works well and can prove a beneficial relationship with child exists otherwise for example

•Who will pay for all the legal costs. In cases of domestic violence when the grandparents decide to go to court for access and the woman/man working part time or not at all has court bills to pay who will feed and clothe the child?

•Courts make mistakes there are cases where fathers have gained access to their children through the courts and then murdered them, there are parents who believe their children are perfect regardless of what they have done or accused off and would allow abusers access to their children.

•Emotional abuse which is horrendously difficult to prove, after a parent has made the decision to stop contact with a grandparent. That grandparent would get the chance to inflict their damage on a new generation with the parent having to live with the consequences to themselves and children.

•Abuse that was never reported or prosecuted physical or sexual in law it never happened.

Abusers by their nature are incredibly manipulative even hardened prison officers struggle to deal with it and are only allowed to work in these wings for a short period of time because of just how manipulative these offenders are.

Imagine being a mother and forced to give your child to your abuser for access.

Who would pay for the extra family court workloads all the extra assessments, which includes the cost of all the professionals involved.

Also even if there are tenuous reasons for having cut contact would any loving grandparent be prepared to cause financial hardship to their grandchild for the sake of a couple of hours once a month.

I know there must be some stupid petty people who cut contact for malicious nasty reasons but the vast majority of parents are the same as you just trying to do their best or dealing with their own unseen issues. Parents have to be given the right to protect their children.

Don’taskme and fairydoll, good posts. So sad, so many posters on here who are not estranged and appear to want to justify estrangement.
This thread is about support, if you cannot find it in your heart to give support, leave the thread.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think estrangement is a good thing. I do think that in many cases it's the last resort after all other options have been exhausted.

I am a member of other boards where people discuss problems with ILs and family of origin. Very rarely is the advice given to CO entirely, unless there are substantial issues (abuse, substance abuse, grandparents who have demonstrated repeatedly that they will not listen to boundaries, etc.). Sometimes we may suggest that people take a break, but not usually a permanent one. The goal is not necessarily to "punish" but to give the person a chance to decrease stress and see if they can think of a solution.

Sadly, too, some people refuse to accept their children's boundaries. They insist on showing up unannounced or sending things through the mail when they've been told not to do so. Then they complain when their children call the police or contact a lawyer. Realistically, do you think brow-beating them into submission is likely to be effective? All this does is prolong the estrangement. At the most, I could see sending a short note or text that just says, "I respect your choice. Just wanted to let you know that I got your message and will abide by your wishes. This will be the last time I contact you; I'm leaving the ball in your court and the door is always open." After that, wait until they're ready.

Is estrangement sad? Absolutely. But giving it constant headspace and dwelling on nothing else isn't healthy. This is why I applaud grandparents who say "We are estranged, it's sad, we wish it could be better, but we have accepted it and are finding other things to occupy our lives." Sadly, I have heard of people (again, not necessarily here) saying things such as "You're killing your (insert relative here), they now have high blood pressure/insomnia/depression/insert health issue here and it's all down to the estrangement."

I admit this may have jaded my views simply because it's what I read frequently. I do recognise that situations can differ.

It was a sad story momof3 and I'm pretty certain that the poster made contact with others, family and friends, who assured her that her mother's tales about her F, the posters GF were untrue.

With her mother also deceased she was unable to discuss this with her and tell her how she felt about being denied her GP's her entire life.

My conscience is clear and I thank you for your empathy.

”But giving it constant headspace and dwelling on nothing else isn't healthy. ” Oh the irony agnurse.

I would respectfully suggest you ask yourself why you have this overpowering need to continually dole out unwanted advice, and second hand stories, on a thread that you are irrelevant to. You are not a grandparent, you do not have an estranged adult child. And you most certainly do not have the three core conditions of empathy, congruence and acceptance, so necessary to support those in distress.

Just remember that whilst you are on this thread daily, quoting things you have read, or heard second hand, real people are actually experiencing the pain of estrangement and attempting to deal with it IN THEIR OWN WAY. You have no place here, other than to fulfil what appears to be nothing more than self aggrandisement on your part.



Please take your own advice and leave this thread to fulfil the purpose it was created for.

AgnurseWhat is your problem? I mean really what is the REAL issue with you? Do you fear the GC will love the GO more than the parent? Do you think family time does not include GP? It sounds to me like you aren’t a GP yet but have these unrealistic fears or are you just playing devils advocate on this board? Please tell us why you are on this board? I don’t mean to be aggressive but you seem to like stirring the pot so to speak. Please explain.

I was at my therapist yesterday for a tune up not on my car but me.
She told me that our children’s generation were brought up with everyone having to feel good at school and everyone being a winner and not being left out. Everyone got the trophy so to speak. This has allowed children to always have to feel good about themselves. When they don’t th y cut off contact. When someone disagrees or calls them on their behavior they cut them out. I know in the states this was a movement about twenty years ago that all children had to be a winner in something. Even the worst player on the team had to play.
This makes so much sense when you think about it.

I meant to add that I once had a girl in my class. This was the last year of high school. I was told after her parents had a meeting with the counselor of our school that she had to know beforehand when I would ask her a question in class. She also could not get a failing grade from me as she was fragile and it would hurt her whatever.
If she failed a test she had to take it over u til she got a passing grade. That was just one student out of 150 I had each day. Oh yes. She passed my class.

That's really interesting Rhinestone. When our boys were young we always told them that winning wasn't important as taking part was what mattered.

When they got older they used to say "winning isn't everything but losing stinks"

I wonder how that student manages to cope with the real world, when disappointment has to be managed. I can't say her parents were doing her any favours.