Support for all who are living with estrangement (2)

Chaos, thank you very much for your encouraging post. At least we have some contact although it is infrequent and she often ignores messages. We don't bombard her but send brief loving messages from time to time asking after her and her boyfriend and saying we love her.

She rang on Father's Day and had a long conversation with both of us and told my husband that she loved him. I believe that she does love us all but when we suggested a meeting she didn't want to commit to it. We last saw her 14 months ago, travelled a long way, spent the night in an hotel, thought we had a lovely time - went out for dinner/ breakfast, spent time at an art gallery which she enjoyed, nothing heavy - she hugged us when she said goodbye and said how much she loved us then abruptly cut us off for 6 months. She lived quite close to where one of the bombings took place and lots of people were asking after her but she didn't return anyone's calls or messages. I still pay her mobile phone bill so I had to ring the company to see if the phone was still in use or I would have feared the worst. I still pay the bill because they are not working so money is tight, and I want her to have a means of contacting me if she needs to.

Unfortunately, because they are not working, they are together 24/7, which I don't feel is healthy. They don't see anyone separately because they are 'a package'. He won't see us at all, which means it is difficult for her to do so. The last time was when we went to visit her and we asked him out to dinner with us, but he refused.

During the time she cut us off they moved house and she won't give us her new address. She is off all social media and her close friends are worried that they haven't seen her for over a year. One of them got in touch with one of my other daughters to ask if she were ok. My daughter said that she had been invited by her friends to a birthday meal but it was too far to go.

Jammy, I have been to counselling, I went for about 10 sessions, because I was just being eaten up by it, just before she got back in touch. It was the last thing I thought about when I went to bed and the first thing when I woke up, and preyed on my mind all day. I found it difficult to concentrate on anything or find any joy in anything. I kept turning it all over in my mind. What I had done wrong, what I could do to change things, how to make things right, the guilt was all consuming, but I knew that I was becoming too self absorbed and it wasn't fair on my husband to keep talking endlessly, going round in circles. So I went to counselling to try to get some perspective and to spare my family from me constantly talking and crying - it's not fair on my other daughters or my husband if I am not wholly there for them. I did find the counselling helpful up to a point, but as my husband said, the thing that would make it better would be to have more contact with our daughter.

I am feeling much better than I was and have just spent a lovely couple of days with my middle daughter, going to the seaside, touring second hand bookshops, talking, and eating lots! We have an excellent relationship with her boyfriend and also with my youngest daughter's boyfriend (they recently went on holiday with us) so I am very lucky in many respects and try to focus on the positives.

But as one of the recent posters said, the feelings of rejection from a beloved child are very hard to cope with. I feel so helpless. But my main concern is for her. I worry about her constantly, but I have no doubt that she loves her boyfriend and as long as she is happy, that is what is most important. I just don't understand all this silence and not wanting to be in contact with her family and friends.

Chaos, given your experience, is there any advice you can give me - is it just a matter of being patient and letting her know we are here for her?

I am interested in writing as therapy, maybe I will try it, but just wonder if it would be too painful.

@Smileless - congratulations on Mr S's retirement. I hope there are many happy and healthy years for both of you.

Congratulations Smileless and Husband, many good years ahead.
Dolce latte, I am so sorry, it must be awful knowing your daughter is in that situation. You have her phone at least and can send her loving messages, that you miss her and whatever situation she finds herself in you and family are there for her, let's hope that one day she will. Some men like to control, that's what her partner comes across as. Unfortunately, it is only her that can decide enough us enough. It is good you have your family. No matter how we all cope with estrangement no one that hasn't experienced it can appreciate how bad it is.

Counselling can be a great thing. I am so glad it has offered you a way forward.
I want to clarify that whilst I frequently encounter people in these situations, I am not a domestic abuse specialist. I would also reiterate that whilst I see a number of red flags in the situation you describe, there is no confirmation that DA is occurring.

Experience (with the previous statements firmly in mind) suggests that you are already steering the best possible course, by keeping the door wide open and maintaining the infrequent contacts by not being critical or judgemental when you do meet. Always let her know that your support is only ever a phone call away. There are numerous reasons why someone may not disclose, and forcing the issue, or confronting someone before they are ready is likely to have the opposite effect.
It is important that you remain the strong base you have always been. Do some research on support services local to her, and just keep it to hand, so that if you ever do receive a critical situation call you can offer immediate answers.

My best advice would be to contact the National Domestic Abuse telephone support line for advice on your situation and how you can best offer support to your daughter.. Its free, easily googled, and they are specialists who will understand your concerns, and can offer professional guidance.
It is a good idea to make a list, before you call, of the specifics in the history, as the conversation may bring out a lot of emotion for you and its easy to forget some major points. I would start by saying that they have moved a distance away and she no longer has contact with friends or any family member.....it needs to be clear that this is not about a breakdown in mother/daughter relationship, but a broadscale 'no contact' with anyone she was close to.
xxx

Thanks Lucky for your support. I fear you are right that some men like to control. I came across quite a few of them in my professional working life, so know the type.

In my case, the background is that my daughter met her boyfriend at university and they decided they wanted to live together after they graduated. She was clearly very serious about him, having broken off the relationship with her long term boyfriend at home to be with him. He seemed quiet, didn't really engage with any of us, but I put it down to shyness.

My daughter asked me for some money to buy a house with her boyfriend, as he had some money from his grandfather. I agreed and took money out of my pension to give to her, but said that it would have to be expressed to be a loan with a Deed of Trust.

It was during the house transaction that I began to see what the boyfriend was like. He was angry if the estate agent spoke to me instead of him (I think they did so because I had sent them proof of funds, which they required - there was no mortgage as houses in this area of the country where they lived ie the university town are relatively inexpensive). My daughter wanted me to deal with things on her behalf as she was doing her dissertation and coming up to Finals and had never dealt with agents before. I hasten to add that it was their choice of house, I never even saw it except on the internet and just wanted to make sure that it was structurally sound, and that the legal formalities were observed. Other than that I absolutely did not want to interfere.

The boyfriend didn't want a survey to be carried out although reluctantly agreed, even though the house was at a reduced price and had something wrong with the roof and evidence of damp. He was sulky about the Deed of Trust and flatly refused to have any local searches done. I felt quite intimidated by him myself, like treading on eggshells.

Other things came to light also, which concerned me. He had tried to stop her going on holiday with her friends, although she did go (something she had booked before she met him), started to lay down rules with the other tenants at her flat, even though he was not living there an not a tenant, and left his job placement early, destroying his files on the way out and sending a rude message, because he felt he had not been given big enough projects to work on. Also, what I had thought of shyness seemed to be more like rudeness - seemed even less interested, didn't say please and thank you, just expected to be waited on at table, never helped to clear etc, was with her all the time, even when she was revising, and seemed to be watching her and watching us. I also helped recover the deposit from the previous tenancy where they were both tenants (that's how they met) as it wasn't in a deposit scheme plus quite a lot of compensation - again, not a word of thanks. Also, my daughter started to say things like her boyfriend was 'in charge' and has more recently referred to my husband as 'head of the household', although my husband and I are very much equal partners.

When she was sobbing in her room that day all my unease and concern came out, when he wouldn't leave when I asked him to, so I did 'lose it'I suppose. In my defence, I would say that my daughter had been in a relationship in her teens with someone who turned out to be abusive, but I didn't know or suspect until later. My daughter told me afterwards how he had made her feel and the subsequent, long term boyfriend, who was lovely, told me once that I should have intervened sooner. There was a situation where the previous abusive boyfriend was with her in the bedroom and she was crying so it was deja vu and all of my instincts were to protect her.

After he left, my daughter was in a terrible state and went after him. She drove him up to his parents via his tenancy house, which was hundreds of miles and then back to my daughter's tenancy house, another considerable distance. His parents agreed to lend the money for a limited period, so they recently sold the house and moved to pay his parents back. I kept apologising and offered the money at my daughter's graduation, but he turned it down but later wanted it when his parents wanted their money back. My daughter really wasn't concerned at first, our relationship was stronger than ever - he has not lost out, yet he is the one who is concerned and, it seems, bitter about the situation. My daughter now seems resentful of all of the family and her love, although still there underneath, I think, is tainted by what she sees as our treatment of her boyfriend.

I am rambling again, but the bottom line is that the message I am being given is that I will be expected to provide money if I want to have much of a relationship with my daughter (and presumably grandchild). He is now trying to control me through my daughter. When she got back in touch after those agonising 6 months, first with my husband then me, she was saying that we had to 'see her right' if the boyfriend and therefore she were to see us again. It didn't sound like her talking. I did give her money for her birthday and Christmas,which I would have done anyway, and gave money for the freezer they wanted. But only because I wanted her to have a good Christmas and I know it is expensive moving house. She didn't want to provide her address so we could forward her birthday cards, but asked me to take out any money and transfer it to her account, which I did.

I recently came into an unexpected windfall and transferred £1000 to her account, which prompted a phone call from her that day, and even an email from the boyfriend to thank me, even though the money was for her. They are currently living on benefits and I worry about her not having any financial independence as well as the other independence she would have if she had a job, but I suppose that won't happen now.

I'm sorry this is so long, I am not having a good day today.

I have just read your further post Chaos, thank you.

I can't give much advice as I have no proffessional qualification, nor personal experience of this, but I do feel for you.
You say you are having a bad day.....our day in the UK has only just begun, so I am presuming you do not live here.
Any way, I am sending you some . Thinking of you. What an awful situation to be in.

Thanks Crazy. Yes, I am in the UK but woke up very early, as I often do. Hopefully, the day will get better as it goes on. And thanks for listening!

Some good news from me -
I don't know if I've mentioned it already on here, but I've been upset that we haven't seen or had contact with one of our four for ?10 years? I've kept postal and email contact.Even though not so far away. There had been one or two minor disagreements.
TG she rang last week and came to visit with her husband. Just as she always was.
Husband is rather like that too, but I was so pleased .
I had been saying prayers as well.

That's wonderful news Fennel. I am so pleased for you.

Dolcelatte - I've now read your long post above. Just to say, never give up hope. And as you've done, keep up contact from our end.

Dolce latte, what a dreadful situation for you all, she is trapped because she thinks she loves him, you love her unconditionally so have to play thus awful waiting game.
What on earth has happened to these people to control and isolate people they are supposed to love? They are just cowards and can't maintain a relationship on equal terms. You just have to play that waiting game. I would however,nary and jerk the money yo a minimum, he probably sends it, put it by for her as one day she will need it.

Thank you all for your good wishes which I've passed onto
Mr. S. He said how lovely it was that people you've never met are so kind and thoughtful.

Controlling partners are a nightmare and women can be just as controlling and emotionally abusive as men which is what we believe has caused our estrangement with our son.

The answer to your question regarding counseling is no Jammy. We spent almost 2 years talking to one another, to family and friends, which included friends who have known us and our boys since they were little and the only common factor that materialized from these endless heart searching conversations was the woman our son married.

As with you Dolcelatte, we found the endless cycle of self examination extremely damaging both physically and emotionally so after 2 years we made a conscious decision not to talk about it with family, which includes our other son, and friends. We talk about it together from time to time but even those conversations between Mr. S. and I become fewer as time passes.

I have never felt guilty for what has happened. We are imperfect people who became imperfect parents and did our very best for our imperfect children.

We had a truly wonderful relationship with our ES and continue to have one with our DS. As time has gone by, we've learned from others that the behaviour our ES's wife exhibits was evident from a young age. She has a history of cutting out family and friends, including her own parents.

Sadly, this doesn't explain how she managed to drive a wedge between our son, his entire family apart from his brother, and friends he's known for many years. How she managed to get him to believe her lies and how eventually, he came out with lies of his own.

To some questions there are no answers and inevitably I think, there comes a time when you just stop asking the questions.

To crazy chaos and anyone else who doesn't know, my mother wanted me dead & gone from the time she knew she was pregnant. She had a narc personality & I was never allowed my own perspective. It was only ever a case of what I could do for her & not vice versa - from my youngest years. When I was a small child she just walked out and left. I had no notice. She left me with my paedophile father with predictable results. I was violently beaten, starved and sexually tortured - for years. Despite all this I never held it against her. What lead to me cutting her off was her behaviour to me when I was an adult. I needed to enforce my own boundaries to have the freedom to be me. And more than that, I needed to protect my own dc. She never did the right thing by me, how could I trust her to do the right thing by them? With the enormous amount of therapy I've done and continue to do I realise she is a severely damaged individual - yet she believes she's very respectable & upstanding. She has no idea of the damage she's done. And despite all this I still have some form of mental attachment to her, though I've not spoken to her for 10yrs. What sort of woman walks out on her dc without a backward glance? My brother was only a toddler..

Jammy, your mother was presumably beaten and treated badly by your father, I can't begin to think how that would affect anyone as well as giving birth to two children. I would think I would protect my children and leave, but that has never happened to me. I would have had family take me in and support me, without that how would you cope? You ask what sort of person can do the unthinkable, well a badly damaged one as you say. . You will never get the answers you want that can wipe out your abusive childhood, but focus on the now and the future of your family. Sometimes there are no answers. We hear on the news the tragic little victims of violent parents and it touches all of us. If it has been 10 years since you saw her and it gives you closure meet one last time in a public place and ask the questions you want to, if that isn't what you want, only you can decide.
Good luck Jammy. ?

Thank you Fennel, Lucky and Smileless, for your good sense and empathy. It is the waiting and wondering and the uncertainty which is so hard to live with, plus the worry, but this site is helping me to gain a bit of perspective, I think. Thank you!

@Jammy. Lucky has given exactly the same response as I was going to give, but she got there first. You may need one meeting to understand and with understanding may come forgiveness. It's worth a try, I think, if there is any chance of your coming to terms with the past and gaining the peace of mind which you so desperately crave and deserve. Good luck!

Been thinking about my stuff again. Can I have a kind of practise here? If I say to my dm 'I know you wanted me dead & gone from the moment I was conceived. I remember you tying my legs to the cot as a 1 yr old. The reason I couldn't eat as a toddler is because you were overdosing'. What would you say?

Yes, have a meeting with your mother......tell her all that's been bothering you all these years, but dont gmake it confrontational....that won't give you the peace you need. Listen to her. She probably was unhappy herself and being abused by your father, or was abused as a child.
I remember being rather harsh with my children, when my husband was having an affair. I'm ashamed to say I took it out on them. I feel guilty, but the kids now know .....I was emotionally abused by him, but never physically. It's all over now...he left and married someone else. My kids are all married with children of their own...daughter is on her own. History repeating itself. But sons seem happy enough in their marriages.

Dolcellate I am so sorry you are having such a difficult time. We love our children so much and only want the best for them.
Fennel that is fantastic news.
Smileless I so empathise with your situation. It's really helpful mentally to have someone who truly understands. Because in reality no-one can deliberately be that cruel or can they! They say what goes around comes around but I couldn't bring myself to wish that on them. Your hubby has more caring friends than he thought.

Thanks Goo. We spoke to her on Sunday, long chatty conversation but she said she doesn't want to see us, although she is happy to speak on the telephone from time to time. I know it's better than nothing, but it still breaks my heart that she is so distant and distrustful when she used to be so open and loving. She is not interested in seeing any of her former friends either, as they are 'on a different path'. She ignores most communications, including from her sister (not the one she has cut ties with). I think she regards us as the past now rather than present and future and shows no interest in our lives or anyone's else's so far as I can see.

Dolce latte, you spoke on Sunday for a long time, that shows you are not just her past. Surely any communication is good, keeping doors open, I know you want more but she has taken a different path to her friends, as she said, we all change, that isn't to say that one day she can't pick up with one of them or make other meaningful friendships. When you eventually do reconnect it will different for you all. When I think of my family life bringing up my two, they are living a completely different way. My d just left me behind as she got on, the girl I raised would never have done that, I have accepted it by thinking that she is happy. Her situation is different from your d as she sounds as if everything has to be her partners way, but in time she will most likely fight back, let's hope so and she will always know that you will all be there for her, that will make all the difference. My sil is a good sort and what my d does is her decision.

Hello everyone- I’ve been absent from here as I have been in pain with my leg. Trying to get fitter I was taking water exercise classes and inflamed my IT bands which run from the hip to the knee. I am much better now .
SmilelessGive Mr S a big hug from me and tell him “ Welcome to the club.” I wish you both nothing but good times , good health and peace.
You have entered another era.

Thank you Lucky, that's good advice. I hope things work out for you too!

Thanks Dolcelatte, I know for me it can never be right, I was cut out because I didn't fit in and I never will. I accept it but will never understand it. I have built a good life, which was difficult after the death of my lovely husband. My father who idolised her said she would break my heart, I never understood at the time why he said it, but I do now. Yours is a completely different situation and I do think in time you will get your daughter back, i really hope so..