Kept from grands I need advice

Nice post Cornishcleo and well done on being nice to your m.i.l. The Indian culture have a very deferent opinion on their elders and really do care for them & respect them. I think for the Indian community 'popping in' unannounced is their way, as is with other cultures including my gypsy s.i.l's . I never did this, as it's not in our culture to do. I always phoned and checked first, although I spoke with my daughter every morning anyway, so would just confirm 'ok, to come over' on my normal Tues & Fri visits.

Nurse I think OP, along with me & the rest of the 'cut-off' grandmas, made the mistake of thinking of ourselves as family, you point out in your post that this isn't the case here & with us other CO'd grandmas

yogagirl you’re assuming the letter came from the dil? The OP herself has said she has ‘never seen eye to eye’ with her son. Is it not possible that this man got tired of the constant friction with his mother? I understand your judgement will be affected by your own awful treatment at the hands of your sil and I am truly sorry, but let me assure you that isn’t always the case.

Also is it not possible that the dil’s view of the OP could have been affected by what the OPs ds has told her? If they’ve never seen eye to eye, it’s possible that he has some not very complimentary things to say about his mum. It would only be natural that the dil would be wary of the woman who (in his eyes) the son has a difficult relationship with. If that’s the case everything the OP did, the refusal to stop giving advice, expecting to do things her way, claiming to ‘only’ visit twice a week would seem so much worse.

Rather than vilifying a woman who I’m not convinced is to blame, perhaps we could focus on giving the OP advice to rebuild the relationships? Surely the key to seeing her grandchildren is reconnecting with her ds, and I’m not sure continually insulting his choice of partner is the way to do this.

Gummubear your last post, I feel sure that there are just a very small minority that would act in such a bad way towards their AC&GC, most I'm sure are of the later group you spoke of with great grace and fortitude

I was told don't worry, the judge will see right through you s.i.l's lies, they deal with this type of person all the time!, the judge believed his every lie & that of his mother's, in her statement to the courts. you will be given your chance to speak I wasn't allowed to speak or defend the lies being told! I wasn't allowed to show pictures, showing what a loving and close family we had been [a picture of me, my estD, myDD and my GD cuddled up on my settee, very happy & quite clearly close & loving]. I wasn't allowed to show emails or any paper work, I was told by the Judge to put them all away!

Bluebelle if you think Gummybears post is long, you need to take a look at a new poster on the Brainwashing thread of Nina's, no way could I read all that, turned out she was a man, can remember the name now Been on here toooooo long again this morning

Good post again Alexa Kind & sympathetic, just as it should be. [the post above BB]

Point taken Spaniel but the son did say to his mother I need to be a better son to you mum and don't forget this is her only child & grandchildren!

Don't normally C&P, but....
OP: I have emailed and sent cards to my son to try to understand this painful situation. He says he loves me, but how can he deny me my grandchildren if that’s true? He refused to have family counseling when I offered

OP also said she has apologized, but doesn't know what for!

I have absolute sympathy for the OP yoga I have mentioned before that it is only thanks to the grace of my dil that I see my dgs, my own ds doesn’t particularly like me or want me in his life.

When I read that the son says these things, it tells me that he knows he is wrong, and feels guilty for what he has done. Not his wife.

The OP does has apologised, but is reluctant to change her behaviour, and the son appears to be apologising, but also reluctant to change his. A horrible situation for all involved.

Yogagirl I appreciate you are seeing this through totally different eyes to many on here because of your own situation but sympathy really doesn’t get the baby bathed
Of course Immagamma knows what she’s done wrong she has listed all the things herself but she doesn’t see any of her anctions as wrong and has carried on regardless so unless these things are pointed out to her ( hopefully kindly ) she will just carry on doing what she’s done and saying well I don’t know what I ve done wrong
OP has said she has apologised but has no idea what she’s apologising for, so that’s a completely empty apology, of course a son who says I love you mum but I don’t want you to be involved with my children must have a VERY real reason especially as all the rest of the family have contact and unless Immagamma comes to understand and accept what she has done to cause this nothing will change will it

Yogagirl
I am so sorry that your difficulties with your sil has caused a rift in your family so you are no longer able to see your DGD.

I am guessing the OP has long gone and I have thought long and hard over this thread not only because of our past difficulties with MIL but also because this Friday my DD will give birth to her DD2 and our DGD2. Our granddaughters are therefore in my mind quite a lot at the moment. It would break my heart not to be able to see them so I guess I do have a certain degree of sympathy with the OP even though I think she acted unwisely. I have tried to reflect if there were any circumstances in which we would have cut my MIL off from our grandchildren and we would not have done it as I remember how much she loved them when they were tiny. It would seem cruel not to let her have some contact as they grew up even though it was never enough for her.

I wonder if the son of the OP and maybe of Smileless and Yogagirls DD just give in for a quiet life when there are conflicts between the partners and PIL. That strikes me as extremely cowardly and cruel to discard their childhood and all their parents have done for them and lazy not to try and come up with some sort of compromise so that all the family can find a way of getting along with each other. An hour or two every now and again does not seem to be unreasonable providing the GP agree to follow the guidance of the parents whose children they are all trying to keep in contact with. Even if I had wanted my MIL to have no contact with our DDs I cannot imagine any circumstances where my DH would have agreed. You only have one mum.

I did not accuse you of bias toward your clients gummybears, how dare you accuse me of doing so.

Your first post which I found to be bias made no mention of your work as a family lawyer, so when I said I found your post to be bias against EP's and EGP's how on earth could I have been making a "gross insult" to both your "personal and professional ethics", when I didn't know what your profession was?

Your "intervention in this thread" has not negatively affected me. You have not upset me but if you desire not to anger me any further, don't talk down to me and accuse me of comments that I haven't made.

Agnes's, I agree with your post. Sorry Smileless I disagree with the sending of religious verses, I wouldn't like it, she has had a cruel letter cutting her off, which in my opinion is cowardly, but they have made it clear they want no contact. OP would like to know the reason for it, she deserves that, but can't make them do it.. If she really has no idea and they have made it clear they do not want her in their lives, in reality there is nothing she can do, but learn to live with it. It must be so heartbreaking when other family are welcome and she is on her own and ostracised. I just know that sometimes you have to accept the unfairness of it all and make a different life.

Sorry, should have read Agnurse post.

Luckylegs i m only guessing here as 90% of a one sided story is guesswork but I bet Immagamma has been told why she’s not to see the children just that to her it’s not a valid reason and she sees nothing wrong with her behaviour and therein lies the problem If a child said to me I really don’t want you doing a, b, or c with my children I d say ‘oh gosh right of course’ no matter WHAT IT WAS and even if I thought I was right and they were wrong I ll bet you a pound to a penny poster has been told many times before they cut the ties
She has made it quite obvious she sees herself as right and everyone else as wrong Why else would all the rest of the family be having normal relationships except her, the only answer is she either can’t see the problem ( that’s sad and she needs personal help) or she won’t see the problem and until she does nothing will change

I know I do look at things, tinted by my own situation, can't see it any other way, as I know the pain & deep sorrow being cut off from your AC&GC brings, it's destroyed my life. I said to Smileless yesterday 'I want my life back, I used to study yoga philosophy every morning, now it's GN' When I was first 'cut-out' I just couldn't read, listen to radio, watch a TV programme, so my house was in deep morning and still not back as I was.

I think, at the end of the day, one hour per week surely can be given. I had a close & loving relationship with my now estD, as did her sister, my other DD. We had been through a lot together, so had a special bond, I thought. There was no incident, no argument [only between D&H], so why??

As for an hour visit per week being a bad influence on the children, I don't think so. When I was growing up, my dad would always call my nan 'ole` cow' & mimic her calling my granddad 'Will, Will' this made no deference what-so-ever to my feelings of love for my N&G, I only every viewed them as sweet, kind & gentle. Don't know why he didn't like her, they were actually very good to my M&D, putting them up as newly weds for 2yrs, till they found their own house. Four generations lived in that house , normal in those days. Even though my dad would say these negative things about my nan, he would go and collect them every Sunday, to spend the day with us. I remember shelling peas, sitting on our kitchen garden step outside, for our Sunday roast Also bringing them to the seaside with us for the day and of course Xmas & Easter dinners too. So showing it can be done, just needs a heart and some compassion for your elderly parents. I don't think that's a big ask, I really don't.

As I've said before, my sister is a born-again-Christian, quotes the bible at me, sends me verses, tried to 'convert' [for want of a better word, I am a Christian] my children when they were small [only thing I told her off for]. Presents were quite often Bibles, but that's how she is, so we smile and nod and move on, no problem.

That's fair enough Luckylegs, we can't all agree can we.

Lovely post Yoga, it made meas I remembered my maternal GM. She was a strong and forceful woman and used to at times, drive my dad up the wall but he loved her and like your D picked her up to bring her for weekend visits, Easter and Christmas.

It shouldn't be a big ask and it's such a terrible shame that for some, it appears to be.

Yogagirl wrote:
"Nurse I think OP, along with me & the rest of the 'cut-off' grandmas, made the mistake of thinking of ourselves as family,"

I think this is the root of the problem, that Immagramma has a fixed idea of how members of a family interact. The family is very important to most of us, However in some families the individuals are loosely connected if at all and in other families the individuals behave as if they were all nuclearly connected even when living in separate houses. But spouses too can be more, or less, sharing their lives.

Immagramma has not caught up with the modern trend for the generations to live apart. It took me some time to get used to this . These major changes in how society is organised along with fixed ideas cause much suffering.

As Alexa says it is indeed a fairly modern thing that generations of families live apart but in my own family that has been the case on some of the twigs of our family tree in generation after generation as people moved for work. Our family members are right across the globe!. We children were fortunate to have our paternal GPs live wih us as we grew up even though my GM was not at all close to my mother, her DIL, who always smiled even through gritted teeth! It certainly taught us tolerance and how to smooth things over and keep everyone happy even though it was probably hard on my mother but it is how to live in an extended family situation. I cannot get my head round totally excluding anyone from the family because it surely cannot be beyond any of our capabilities to grit our teeth and be pleasant for even a short time. Nobody is all wrong and nobody is all right.

Bringing it back to the Christian aspect my mother really lived her faith and that is the difference between the nominal and the practising Christian. Btw we practise because none of us are perfect!
It really grates to hear of so called faith being used as a weapon of choice to play on others' conscience because that is not what it is about. It is about having a personal and right relationship with God and if you can work on that it teaches how to keep all the other relationships right. There is plenty of teaching in the bible about the right way to live so that those who have received the teaching and have gone against it are without excuse and will have to answer for it on that day. I call it 'so called faith' as I am not at all convinced that a true Christian would dare to do such a thing knowing that they will have to stand before Almighty God and account for everything. (But there again we are all sinners, without exception.) I know that Jesus died so that our sins are forgiven but we are taught that you just do not do things which go against scripture. People also do things for the right reasons but in a wrong way. Living well is such a hard thing to do and the pain of love and family life in all it's complications can be so unbearable that we can do and say things when emotions are high which we would never do in the cold light of day.

Sorry for the length of post.

Synonymous, I'm atheist but your explanation of Christian morality and God is very reasonable. So reasonable, actually, that it's applicable to theists and atheists alike.

So many things going on here, and we must remember there are two things we cannot change, the past, and other people.
My advice to Immagamma would be to decide exactly what she wants. Does she want contact with the children at any cost, or does she want to have contact, but still be ‘ allowed to be me’?
I suspect the latter would not be successful, so, asloopylou said,
I’d say send a letter apologising for HER OWN behaviour, being specific about what SHE has done, and say she would love some contact with the children, but would wait until they got in touch, and perhaps they could send photos occasionally.
Sadly, I suspect the letter would go straight into the bin ( as all the bible texts probably did!), so she may have to ask a family member who is in contact to deliver it.

Since the OP hasn't been back on this thread for a good few days, isn't it time to call it a day? She's had all the advice she could possibly cope with!

That's an interesting point Daddima "Does she want contact with the children at any cost, or does she want to have contact, but still be allowed to be me"?

It got me thinking. We were never told prior to being CO what the 'issues' were. We were never given a list of do's and dont's to be followed or we'd have lost our son and only GC.

That said, if we had been I'd have said 'no I don't think so. We've been loving, caring and nurturing parents to you for 27 years. You were more than happy with us being who we are so I'm not going to change now just because you've decided to change the 'rules'.

Losing your child through estrangement is painful beyond words but for me losing myself and my integrity would have been a price too high to pay.

It's often the way minesaprosecco that the OP doesn't return and the thread they started takes on a life of it's own. The OP may still be reading even though she's no longer contributing.

Alexa x

I just wanted to point out that she did not back off when asked by her son and DIL. She went to other relatives to secretly get photos and information when she was told no contact, they had enough.

No matter what they asked her to do, she refused to comply and if this was an ex husband doing these things everyone would see it for the stalking and controlling behavior it is.

No matter what contact she originally had she blew it by refusing to follow the parents wishes. She knows better and feels entitled to tell them how to raise their children and entitled to show up anytime she wants.

On top of this she has clearly made the DIL the bad guy and gone to great lengths to play the victim with other relatives and crying to anyone who would listen that she doesn't know how they can be so cruel to her when she had done nothing wrong.

Narcissists rarely recognize themselves as being responsible for family breakdowns. OP has clearly made it all about how she is the wronged one here when the list of things she has done would make anyone want to keep her crazy away from their children until they know she can be trusted to respect their parenting decisions.

I suspect telling all the extended family how the DIL has mental health issues because she refused to be bullied by MIL hasn't gone down with the family that are allowed to visit.

They even moved and tried to hide their address from them and OP is proud she managed to track them down again even after being told no contact.

Personally, I'd be scared of having someone so blind to her actions around my family.

As to the religion, American from Texas here with a church on every corner and I'd be upset with all the bible versus pointing out my un Christian behavior and how I disappoint God with hand chosen bible passages designed to make me feel guilty.

In addition to being asked no contact she went to great lengths to hunt them down and send cards, gifts and packages as a constant reminder that she can get to them anytime she wants no matter what they say.

We only know a small bit of her side and it's clear that she was determined to make them parent the way she said was the right way or her way. I can only imagine her being one being cut off after repeatedly Grandparenting in a style that they felt was so far from theirs that they had no choice but to set boundries that she clearly refused to follow.

Personally I hope OP backs completely off, takes a good look at what brought her to this point and perhaps in time when they don't feel under constant onslaught of unwanted communications, they might be willing to take steps to build a relationship once she can prove she can be trusted again.