I just want to make this clear

Stormer, I think you make some great points! The perspective of the AC/CIL is often different from that of the parents/PILs. We all need to keep that in mind, I believe, when dealing with family conflict.

I applaud your decision not to get angry with DD. You might just chalk it up to experience and guard your purse more carefully, so to speak, in the future.

But please don't beat yourself up over the past. If it was a sibling conflict, there wasn't much you could have done. And one person can't be expected to solve these issues by themselves. Hugs!

I didn't 'get' what it's like to be left, the grown up child doesn't know on leaving what it does to their parents, it's only in hindsight when those affected are very old or have passed, that you gain the knowledge that you so wish you'd have had when you were causing this grief.

That might be true in your case Stormer and I accept you didn’t know the pain you were causing. But it isn’t always the case. Having watched the pain my MiL suffered at the hands of one of her children, we, as a young couple, decided against emigrating, because we couldn’t ‘put her through it again’.

It’s not just with age that comes compassion and understanding.

Stormer, thank you for your post, it is so easy with hindsight to see the whole picture. You did make up a year before grandma died, you whilst you can't undo the past you know as a mother that we love unconditionally and she would just have been thrilled to have you all back. Now you must take a back seat whilst your daughter lives life her life her way.?
Smileless, your son has backed himself into a corner and lashes out, it's easier fir him to leave things as they are than sort them.
I have always felt regardless of who is right and wrong etc, at the end of the day who cares, pride goes before a fall and all that,it is worth reaching out. I did for that and tried everything. After years of estrangement, just knocking on that door and risking it being shut in your face, not to recriminate but to go forward despite the differences. Trouble is a lot of people just want to be right. I just wanted things to be right. If you have done everything and it hasn't worked you just have to get on with it, but it's hard, but it's their life.
Nannykay you are just hurting so much, you don't mean what you say. Of course it's better your child lives, even if they never see you again, I would in an instant give anything for my children, they come first, whether I see them or not. My heart goes out to anyone who has lost a child, the pain must be unbearable.

Thank you Stormer for your post and for your honesty.

I'm very grateful to you for giving me the opportunity to read your story and for the comfort I've received from it. It is as you have posted Googoogool with regard to the pain that's been inflicted "lovely to know that some do" regret the pain they've caused.

That's a lovely post Stormer. Thank you for your honesty. Your regret at how you handled things is quite uplifting. Now also you are able to see things from both sides. I'm not convinced that everyone will regret the pain they dish out, a pain deliberately inflicted still shocks me, but it's lovely to know that some do.

Just been reading this thread, and you realise that relationships are often very messy. I have been on both ends of the spectrum. My DH and I moved from Manchester to Cornwall with our two children nearly twenty years ago. The move was down to DH project here in the SW. There was a lot of upset in his family and relationships with siblings had broken down for a whole host of reasons. Needless to say when caught up in the emotions you don't always make rational decisions. My DH mother was caught up in the cross fire, and she suffered not only the loss of her grandchildren, but the anger that ensued from the goings on meant she didn't see our children for three years. The hurt we felt magnified the problem, we felt our hurt was justified. Well I can tell you now, although we made up just a year before our children's paternal grandma died, the sorrow I feel for not dealing with what had gone on in a less emotional and more rational way will haunt me to the day I die. My DH siblings were at the heart of the family discord, and things were said and done that involved stuff that in later life you realise doesn't matter, money, petty grievance, little things that hurt you at the time. So I know what it's like to part in anger and for that to grow and cause a divide that seems unsurmountable. The hurt I know we caused the Paternal Grandma has made me feel such regret it makes me ill, the last three years of that woman's life could have been so much better and we made it worse. I always got on very well with her, she came to my ante natal classes with me, she was there at the birth of her granddaughter. Sibling conflict was at the core of this upset. We made up, but the damage had been done. Now my own daughter is leaving with our two grandchildren to live five hours distance away. There is a little discord there as well, in that a considerable amount of money has been 'taken' in what is my daughter's 'recklessness' as opposed to nastiness, but I am hurting now like our children's paternal grandma hurt all those years ago. In feeling that hurt today the regret I have at having dealt badly with family upset in the past is actually making me ill. How could we have done that? how did we justify falling out at the already difficult time of departure? There are many facets to estrangement, but it's harder to bear when it's your own flesh and blood. My own parents were sad when we left but never made us feel bad, therefore I didn't 'get' what it's like to be left, the grown up child doesn't know on leaving what it does to their parents, it's only in hindsight when those affected are very old or have passed, that you gain the knowledge that you so wish you'd have had when you were causing this grief. High emotions get in the way of rational thought. I often think in my case, what comes round goes round, that maybe we get back what we deserve, but I do realise that in part that's nonsense, especially if we are inherently good people. I understand the hurt from both sides, and it sucks. Because I now have that knowledge I've chosen not to get angry at my daughter and her OH. Believe me it was a considerable amount of money and we don't have much as my husband is post stroke and no longer works, I work part time and care for him as well. Growing older throws some curve balls. What can I say that can make you feel better? sadly nothing other than there are many of us out there, there are those that seem to sail through life with great support when life throws these challenging times at us and others who seem to have to struggle through without much support at all. All I can offer is that I feel your pain, I can relate to it and I wont advise you to do anything, except get up each day and try your hardest to carry on, it's all we can do. When our children grow and have their own lives it's in the lap of the Gods, down to fate and personalities as to how those relationships work out. We can only do our best. Try not to let this hurt interfere with those who are around you. I really hope that you have at least one person who is helping you through this awful time. Take care, feel free to message any time, a problem shared and all.

That term "living bereavement" sounds like it fits, MissAdventure.

Smileless, I'm speechless... just so sorry...

I have heard estrangement described as a living bereavement, and it does seem to feel that way for those who are in that position.

Nannykay…..just like to say I'm thinking of you today. I hope you post again soon.

That's how I feel too Eglantine21....estrangement v death?
Pain is pain where ever its found.

Smileless, Thankyou for putting your experience so articulately. It helps those of us who have seen this first hand rationalise it somehow, and those of us who haven't understand a little more!

I'm just sorry there is a need for this support. X

Actually I don’t think it’s helpful to compare peoples pain.

Just that really.

For me, who has been fortunate not to have suffered the loss of a child either through death or separation, I can only imagine the dreadful pain and turmoil you experience/d.
All I can offer is sympathy.
I have used counselling to manage a different situation. It cannot 'mend' a situation but it can help you to see the choices you have in how you can live your life after a situation has happened. It is worth doing if you can go with an open heart and mind.

Smileless, that is cruel.

Thinking about Nannykay, her child who died didn’t choose to leave her, her elder son did, rejection.

Thank you Annie.

We never considered going outside when he walked passed Greengal for fear of confrontation. Once when we were returning from a walk and walked passed their house, our eldest GC, only about 3 years old was in the front garden.

I stopped just to look at him and he began talking to me, reaching up to the door bell and telling me he could almost reach it. Our ES was standing there, looking at the ground and didn't say a word.

Then the front door opened and his wife grabbed our GC by the arm, told him to 'get in here now' and pulled him inside.

As we were walking away, we heard our ES yelling at us 'just leave us alone, leave us alone'. We turned around and he was standing in the middle of the foot path, his face almost purple with rage and shaking his fist at us.

Mr. S. was so angry, I felt his body tense and he went to move toward him. I realised our GC was standing next to our ES, looking up at him alarmed and confused so I told Mr. S. we should walk away, which we did.

With the distinct possibility of such a hostile and aggressive reaction, there's no way we would ever approach him again.

Smileless, I am so sorry, how painful for you

Oh, Smileless, your last paragraph astounded me! How could ES be so cruel? Or was he, perhaps, hoping you or Mr.S. would come out and try to mend things? Did either of you ever try that?

Be that as it may, I understand your feeling that you had to move on, that you couldn't keep waiting for that telephone call or text, etc. I can see where that kind of hope could turn to further pain after a while. Hope all continues to go as well as possible for you.

Thank you Greengal. I can understand why those who have tragically had a child die, cannot understand why some who are estranged do not see any hope where there is life.

For some of us, that is the harsh realisation we have to face in order to move on with our lives. In the end it isn't just the estrangement itself that begins to destroy us, it is the hope that perhaps maybe, one day the estrangement will end.

For us, there was only so long we could wait for the telephone call, text or knock at the door that never came. There were only so many times we could open his emails in the vain hope that they wouldn't be full of his anger, bitterness, lies and bile.

Some AC walk away and are never heard from again. Some need not only to stick the knife in, but twist it at every given opportunity.

We used to live just 15 doors away from our ES and it seems that not allowing us to have contact with our GC wasn't enough for him. On more than one occasion he walked passed our house with our GC. He didn't need too, we lived on a cul de sac.

Brupen, nobody should be feeling so low as to contemplate ending things.

Please do not dismiss counselling. Of course they counsellor cannot fix things but slowly you may gain more understanding and be able to cope better.

Brupen, maybe counseling cannot change the situation, but the right counselor might be able to help you cope and stop thinking about ending your life.

Nannykay, in the same way, counseling might help you overcome the negative thoughts you are obviously having. Please consider it.

OMG! I am astonished to hear of so many mums cut out of their sons and daughters' lives! How can this happen? Especially when it's "all" or almost "all" of one's kids? How cruel! My heart breaks for you all!

My heart also breaks for those of you who have lost a child to Heaven. How very, very sad.

Fortunately, for me, I haven't experienced either, so I don't presume to know which is worse. Death seems more final to me, but perhaps I am wrong. I imagine different people see it different ways, just like in this thread.

I'm glad for the family members some of you still have contact with and hope you treasure every minute. Smileless, I am glad you and Mr. S. have found some sort of peace.

Have you ever thought that the continuing grieving for the baby that you lost made your son feel unwanted - or not as much worth as the long lost baby
Children can be very sensitive to these feelings. Did he ever get the idea that the lost baby -now an angel and perfect, was just too much competition.
I think my two DDs would not have reacted well to my always grieving for a lost baby when they were alive and they could see that I had a child.

Nannakay, I'm so sorry to hear of your troubles. You are very brave.

Nannykay, I cannot imagine the pain you must live with. I cannot add really to all that's been said, but I do hope there are times when you can put the awful pain aside and live for the day and grab the bits of happiness in it.

Who'd have thought becoming a mother could bring so much pain with it?

I agree with Anniebach. I'd rather my daughter was out there somewhere, living her life and contributing to society even without me in her life.

I think counselling would help, Nannykay, to put things in perspective.

I do sympathise with your pain