Support for all who are living with estrangement

Thank you hdh74. Rather than bottle things up, it is probably a good thing to communicate how we feel. But equally, to listen to what our children have to say. We may have to adjust our behaviour too. I have been too accommodating for too long ..... he probably got the shock of his life when I bit back! He was definitely being got at by his partner ....... but he will have to learn to stand up to her .

Good for you Pythagorus for having the courage to stop the abusive behaviour and how wonderful that you have had contact since. Long may it continue.

We had exactly the same treatment. Our ES told us he needed some space so of course we gave it to him. In reality though it wasn't space that he needed, he wanted rid because that's what his wife wanted so his request was just a pre cursor to full estrangement.

A couple of months before we moved I wrote to tell him goodbye. I explained that it was no longer possible to live just 15 doors away, to never know if we would catch glimpses of him and our GC and never know when he'd un necessarily walk pass our house with the GC we weren't allowed to see.

I refuted all of his lies, told him I would always love him but the time had come to say goodbye. His reply can only be described as horrendous. I thought, having received previous rants full of bile and anger that he wouldn't be able to shock me anymore, but he did.

I responded by thanking him for his reply as it proved I was doing the right thing, and I've had no contact from him ever since.

I hope your son is able to stand up to his wife Pythagorus. I used to wonder how things would have been if only our ES had stood up to his.

When people are hurting so badly mistakes will be made agnurse ! Understandable ones, frankly, when people are confused and troubled and most of all lacking any explanation for the ultimatum's given/decisions taken!!

The often quoted "you should know" that parents hear when they ask what they have done wrong is a cop out from taking proper responsibility for a decision that, yes, an individual "has the right" to make.

I see a similar theme here to my own situation before my daughter did a moonlight flit with my GDs. she was moody for about 6 months, created terrible atmospheres and hated the relationship i had with my oldest GD. There is something to learn i think about the advance warning of NC soon to follow. But she was spending all if her time in the internet and reading success stories if those who go NC. She has removed herself from my entire family. I genuinely think she is ill. But it will be difficult for her to appear years down the line, if she wants to. Not that i wouldnt wanted her too. It would be very challenging for her to do. Challenges if untreated post natal depression x2 sadly

Have just listened to a helpful discussion about Grandparents being kept from their grandchildren on Women`s Hour.

Eddiecat78
What is women’s hour? Is that Uk or USA. What was said!

It`s a UK weekly Radio 4 programme. They have been running a series on new grandmothers and had received emails from several women pointing out that there are many grandmothers who are unable to have a relationship with their grandchildren, so today they did a special feature on the problem They interviewed the woman who runs the Bristol Support Group. She discussed the legal situation, some of the reasons for estrangement and what can be done to live with it eg making memory boxes. She did agree that there are some cases where grandparents should not have contact with the children but that this is rarely the case

I heard the R4 Woman’s Hour segment on Estranged Grandparents, it was good though mostly about estrangement on divorce, bereavement etc.

Estrangement due to something in the relationship between our DC and their partners/spouses needs to be as valid too.

Smileless2012 sorry to hear you received horrendous letter from your ES. Families seem to be the last and only place where people can say or write things as nasty and abusive as they like. Sadly.

I checked out mumsnet to see what the other side are saying and there is nothing but encouragement for estrangement there. If you undertake any internet searches, going NC is actually encouraged. Who is a spokesperson for us or more importantly the grandchildren who are missing out from having warmth and loving relationships with their own kith and kin? Even Smileless has move house to escape the pain, but there is truly no hiding or forgetting is there?

Well Smileless, I don’t know how it will pan out .... his partner will have other cards up her sleeves I am sure! However, I can’t change what they think do or feel, but I can change how I decide to react to it. And it was empowering. I had had enough, so if it meant estrangement, so be it. But I didn’t think my son would do that. I should have spoken up a long time ago. The thing is, it’s a delicate balance ........ one has to let them know how it makes you feel without being accusing or blaming. Sadly, if our sons are weak and easily lead, as many are, it is easy for jealous controlling women to isolate them from their families. And fairly common. As I say, I don’t know what the future holds, but I am calmer about it now and not so focussed on it.

The encouragement that some receive to go non contact is frightening Soupernan. Is it any wonder that it's becoming more and more common.

I've found over the years that articles and radio features on GP's being kept away from their GC, usually focus on problems arising from a divorce or break down of the parents relationship eddie. It's a little frustrating that this appears to be the main focus when so many find themselves estranged for other reasons.

We have several friends whose AC's marriages have ended and still see their GC. I wonder if it's more common nowadays for GP's to be excluded because of their AC rather than a breakdown of their AC's relationship.

I understand why you found it empowering to tell your S how his behaviour was affecting you Pythagorus. We often don't fully process the damage that is being done to us until we are able not only to recognise the abuse but stand up against it.

It's good to know that at least you feel calmer about the situation. It took courage to do what you've done.

Yes Soupernan you're right there is no hiding from or forgetting the pain. For me, accepting that my relationship with our ES was over was when I stopped hiding from the harsh reality of our estrangement. We moved away and in doing so began moving on with our lives.

Smileless

Your perspective could be coloured by your experience, but I generally haven't seen people go NC that commonly unless there's a major issue. Usually IME it's suggest to start with less drastic measures:

1) See the problem parent only when their biological child is present, so the biological child can handle any situations that come up

2) Call them out on inappropriate remarks. State that if they don't drop this subject the visit is over - and follow through.

3) Limit contact to once a month or maybe less.

4) Change the subject.

NC is generally meant to be a "last resort" for people who simply will not listen to reason. "No, it's not okay to promise our kids things that we don't agree with." "No, it's not okay to undermine our rules." "No, it's not okay to make inappropriate comments." "No, it's not okay to question our parenting."

IME, at least, generally people don't want to go NC. It's often very heartbreaking, especially for the AC. What I have seen is that often the AC has had major "guilt" buttons installed by the parents, and has spent their whole lives living in a toxic environment. Look at it this way: there's a story about a couple who have a next door neighbour. The neighbour likes to dry her clothes on a wash line. The wife is constantly griping about how the neighbour's clothes are always dirty. One day, she mentions that she thinks the neighbour finally learned how to wash her clothes properly because they're clean. The husband says that he actually washed their windows.

Sometimes there genuinely are co-dependent or equally unhealthy situations going on. Because the AC has been brought up in these situations, they're not always able to recognize that this is not normal behaviour. Admitting that a parent is not a safe person is tantamount to admitting that you were never safe during your whole entire childhood - and safety is one of our most basic human needs. Sometimes a third-party who doesn't have all of the history is better able to see what's going on than someone in the midst of it. Often the parents are very upset, because what they've been doing has worked for THEM for so long, that they don't realize (or don't care) that it's actually hurting their AC.

Now, I'm not saying this is true in EVERY situation, but it is certainly a common narrative that I have seen.

What I have seen is that often the AC has had major "guilt" buttons installed by the parents, and has spent their whole lives living in a toxic environment

Rarely have I seen a more disingenuous, ill informed, incorrect, wide sweeping, generalised pile of tripe than this.

agnurse you have managed to lump every single reason, and there are thousands of reasons, for families to become estranged from each other. But you have single handedly parcelled them all into parents having installed major guilt buttons in their AC. Once again, you've dumped the blame at the parents doorstep without knowing a single thing about them, their A.C. or the stories behind their estrangements. Your cod psychology advice would be alarming if you were ever in a position to offer professional advice. Please don't do that.

Well said Chewbacca.

Thank you.

You're more than welcome Sparkly. The constant pyscho babble and armchair cod psychology that agnurse repeatedly spouts is extremely frustrating, especially as it's dressed up as though it's advice from "someone who knows". There are a million reasons that families become divided. It is simply ignorant, and arrogant, to lump every single one of those experiences into a simple parents having installed major guilt buttons in their AC. It's lazy; its ignorant and it's wrong.

Did you notice that I said "often" and "in my experience"?

Indeed I did agnurse. And i also noticed this;

Your perspective could be coloured by your experience

And has the thought that your perspective is being coloured by your experience ever occurred to you?

You're so quick to dump the blame for every family conflict squarely on the shoulders of the parents; I've noticed it on pretty much every relationships thread that you've responded to. Your swift attribution of parental blame, in almost every situation is predictable. You have absolutely zero insider knowledge of what has, and continues to go on in people's lives that have led to a family estrangement agnurse, they may not be anything like yours. There are a MILLION potential reasons for it. But you have one stock answer to every one of them. IT'S THE PARENTS FAULT. BACK OFF. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. And you cannot, and should not, judge situations of which you have no knowledge. You only have absolute knowledge of your own situation, not others. What you advocate for others is based on your own experiences. And in these situations; it's wrong and it's cruel.

If the AC have indicated that they don't wish further contact, to continue contact is harassment. If they have told you you can't see your GC, and you start trying to contact the child behind their back, you are teaching your GC that it is acceptable to undermine their parents' wishes. If you have been told not to feed your GC something and you do anyway, you are undermining the parents.

Parents have the right to parent their children as they wish. They have the right to decide which adults will and will not be part of a child's life. By claiming that you have rights, you are claiming that YOU know better than the parents what is best for their children.

And you are claiming to know more about personal and individual situations than is ever revealed on any post that ive ever read on this forum.
I reiterate my previous statement in that it's you that is allowing your own your own personal experiences to colour your perspective. And they do not necessarily match every other family discord situation. Fact.

Well I can’t comment on estrangement but Ido know a silly statement when I see one. Parents don’t have the right to parent as they wish. That opens the door to the right to abuse agnurse.

Sweeping statements like that do nobody any good..

Eglantine21

You're correct in that parents don't have the right to abuse their children. That is true.

However, outside of abuse, they have the right to parent their children as they wish. Just because GPs are upset that children are made to stick to routines, have or not have screen time, or have or not have certain foods, does not mean that they have the right to go against the parents' wishes.

Just because GPs are upset that children are made to stick to routines, have or not have screen time, or have or not have certain foods, does not mean that they have the right to go against the parents' wishes.

I think you're conflating a different thread with this one agnurse. No one on this thread has said anything about screen time or "certain foods". This thread is for those of us who are totally estranged from family members; not in filial conflict. Therefore your "advice" is even less appropriate than at first glance.

Ah but what constitutes abuse as opposed to the right to parent as I wish?

A diet taken to unhealthy restrictive extremes becomes abuse.

A forbidding of certain toys or activities such as outdoor play taken to extremes becomes abuse.

A desire to protect and nurture taken to extremes of forbidding outside contact becomes abuse.

A decision to deny children the knowledge of who they are in the context of a wider family taken to the extremes of non contact or even denial of existence. Could that become abuse?

Nothing is as simple as you seem to think.

Sorry people who are regulars on this thread. It’s not the place for me to challenge agnurse. Apologies.

Please don't apologise Eglantine. Whilst you may not have suffered the pain of estrangement, in all its various forms, you clearly have solid parental experience and its that that most of us draw on.
It's so easy to dish out wild generalised advice, usually using one's own personal experience as a panacea for everyone else's. But as you succinctly put it Nothing is as simple as you seem to think. Too true. agnurse please note.