Support for all who are living with estrangement

How long have you been a member of GN agnurse? Sometime I think, certainly long enough to know enough about my estrangement, providing you actually read and process the posts on this subject, to understand that nothing you have stated in response to my previous post is relevant at all.

My experience is exactly that, my experience. You have no personal experience of estrangement. Your sister's estrangement from your parents serves only to give you second hand experience, as you haven't personally experienced being cut out by your own child.

So, the experience you refer too when you say 'in my experience' isn't your experience at all is it. It's other peoples experience and once again, you demonstrate your total willingness to take on board the experiences of AC who have estranged themselves from their parents, putting the emphasis on parents being at fault, while suggesting to me, who has been estranged for more than 6 years and talking about it here, on GN for almost that length of time, that my perspective could be coloured by my experience.

You think!!! Well yes of course but it's my perspective and my experience yet it still enables me to understand and have empathy with an AC who estranged themselves from an abusive parent(s).

You on the other hand, who has no personal experience are either unwilling or unable to process the fact, and it is a fact, that not all estranged P's and GP's are at fault.

We make no attempt to contact our ES, and haven't done so for years. We have been told that we cannot see our GC but continue to send them cards for birthdays and Christmas and TBH I don't give a damn whether that bothers our ES and his wife or not, or whether or not they feel they are being harassed.

I am a GM. I have the right to send my GC cards and they have the right to receive them.

Sorry Eglantine I forgot to thank you for your mature contribution to the discussion.

Chewbacca you are right about people in here where EGP are trying to get support, and spout judgemental stuff.

I have not read or looked at the NC threads on Mumsnet, but if every parent of an AC was abusive in the numbers we are now seeing, why weren’t social services overwhelmed in those days, and if there is any evidence, why aren’t AC complaining about s inaction now?

If thousands of GPS are being CO, who is going to help them when they are frail, ill or old?

Social services and the then taxpayer. Research needs to be done into how bad the level of NC is going to be and the consequences.

Smileless a very good clear post. Thankyou.
agnurse it is a shame when a threw that is there to provide support for people who are estranged gets into such generalised debate about fault!! Estranged GPs are hurting people; there may or may not be valid reasons why they are estranged. Whatever, they are human and they are hurting. We ALL do things that may or not be the best thing to do! We ALL struggle to work out ways forward and , as in the case of Smileless , that involves great bravery and acceptance and moving on and away, as is her "right"! Chewbacca summed up very well why the endless repetition of "rights" and "faults" and possible parents interference in ACs lives is pointless and unhelpful. And frankly the examples you gave for "interference ...well hardly reasons for cut off are they! Sometimes it all reads like trying to press the "guilt buttons" of the cut off Grandparents who are just looking for help and advice from others who have relevant experience. If that is the case, they really don't need or deserve those "guilt buttons" pressed endlessly do they!!

Sparklygrandma, in my husband's case, his Mum never hit him, there was no physical abuse. Mental and emotional, yes but that kind of 'abuse' is only coming out now and being recognised.
SS is no good as he's a 30odd year old man.
Mental health is being spoke about now and linked to things.
He had to go to counselling. He's alot better now but that's only because he isn't around her.
She also denies everything he has spoke to her about. Won't listen and accuses him of lying, because she doesn't see anything wrong with how she talks to him and treats him, she carries on, his biggest fear is that it would imprint on our children.

I'm not saying this is everyones case, but this is ours. She blames me for the whole thing which doesn't help and was the final nail in the coffin for DH as it proved to him that what he was telling her she didn't acknowledge.

We were taking my 93 year old dad and his 95 year old brother to my ES for Christmas Day. They live an hour away so its a day of driving for hubby. Last month hubby and I went away and ES stopped here with our dog. He left before we got home. YS discovered ES had taken something of his with him. ES was having money towards a watch. Hubby texted to say bring what he took back or we would use the money to replace it for YS. He texted to say ok. He came last week with DIL who said he is not returning item and we have no right to keep the money. They went off and we've not heard from them. We have texted and phoned but nothing. Dad is in and out of hospital, we have ES cat here with terminal aggressive cancer and I've no doubt it will be our fault if things go wrong with dad and the cat. I am preparing for Christmas Day here just in case but the whole thing is making me ill. Can't eat, crying. Its just too much. DIL gets offended at the slightest thing and so does ES now.

Whilst I was never formally estranged from my mother we had a "difficult" relationship, largely I think due to her tough upbringing during the war & the fact that she seemed to want to live her life through me (her only child). This became very frustrating & I couldn't wait to leave home at 18 & make my own life.
She was extremely disappointed when I married & had a baby in my early twenties, forever grumbling that my education had been "wasted". She constantly worried that I would stop her seeing her grandchildren whereas that would never have crossed my mind. The only time I ever saw my maternal grandmother was when I was a teenager & she was in a nursing home so there must have been some sort of estrangement there.
Looking at things now it seems to me to be hurtful & frankly absurd to try to lump all estrangements together as one or other parties fault. Life is much too complicated & nuanced for that.
My mother went on to have an excellent relationship with my children. She died many years ago & they remember her fondly.
My education was not wasted & I have gone to have a very successful career, sadly after she died so she was never able to witness it!
None of us really knows each other's circumstances & the best we can do is to offer support rather than judgment to one another.

Grief I can't even get to reading the final few posts as all I see and hear in my head is "installed........ whole life.......... and living in a toxic environment". Too shocked to consider reasonable response!
Smileless-I'm sure you have considered this but was the last response you received hand written or a text? Just that some of the texts from my AC could no way have came from him, he doesn't bother with grammar. Sort of just confirmed what I was thinking.

It was an email Googoogool. She couldn't have written it, the grammar, spelling and punctuation were far too good.

Just a suggestion jimmy but why don't you spend Christmas day at home with your elderly father and uncle. You could invite you ES and d.i.l. as well.

You may feel more comfortable in your own home and have more control there as well. As it's clearly having such a negative impact on you, you could spend the day at home with your elderly relatives and excuse yourselves on Christmas day from seeing your ES and d.i. l.

They're not worth making yourself ill over, really they're not.

Agnursem trying to understand why you are a part of this forum when you are not estranged. Yes I know about your sister. You talk of a toxic environment that warrants children being removed from. To me toxicity is not an environment where you and your parents had disagreements years ago but one in which physical and mental harm is done. An alcoholic and abusive grandparent would warrant not seeing them but how does a disagreement or unfulfilled expectations warrant an estrangement?
Poppinsi would definitely exchange gifts. Maybe you could suggest to your sil law you both go to therapy since he would then be allowed to voice his concerns. Saying it with “ love” and kindness would be putting the ball in his court so to speak.
On my own personal issues my mother is seeing my ES on Wednesday the day before his birthday. We will see what transpires. She told me she wanted to discuss the family with him.
I have been housebound the kastveleven day’s with a horrible upper respiratory virus. My DH has it too. In between coughing and complaining about our ills we both agreed that one day the grandchild we aren’t allowed to see will be calling to see us. We can only hope as that’s all we have left.

Sorry, I was offended my agnurses response. I came here for support not judgement. I dropped presents off with my daughters other half’s mum this weekend. One stop offers some solid support for estranged parents and I listened to that advice.

If only all people were able to close the door on the past .... and vow to move forward in a positive way. Sadly, many of us, including me, have held on to old grudges and hurts for a lifetime.

There are times when I have been able to let an old hurt go .... and it is liberating ..... it leaves a space for love , goodness and positivity to roll in and fill that gap.

But for many it becomes a toxic lump that keeps growing as long as it is constantly fed with negative thoughts.

So for all of us with estrangement and bad feeling within our families ...... is there anything we can do to make things shift? Are we feeding the negativity in any way? Even repeating our stories and justifying things to ourselves is hardening the situation. This is not a judgement ... it is talking aloud as I struggle with my own difficult situation with my own family! Love and peace to you all this Christmas. Spread the love! X

My heart goes out to you as it was my daughter who chose this route for six years in spite of all my best efforts to put things right. Never stop trying for all your sakes and especially for the children- the more love they have in their lives, the better lives they’ll have.

I've written out the Christmas cards for my DGC that they will never see. I'll put them in their "treasure box" that's in a spare room in my house. I've knitted them snowmen this year and they'll go in there too, along with the special blankets I've made in the past, and the Easter Bunnies and lots of other bits and pieces. Its a box full of love. Its also a box full of sadness.

Wish we could just even hear how they are. We have no idea about anything to do with them. I did have a little secret hope in my heart that we'd get a photo on their Birthdays or at Christmas but no, its not to be. Ah well, life goes on regardless.

PythagorusWhat you say is true but it does no good if both parties can’t let go and forgive and forget. How many times can each of us write, call, text, and leave messages only to get nothing back. No contact and no discussion. We are left only with our negative thoughts and maybe some of us are berating ourselves for things we haven’t done. I think it goes beyond us. There is only so much any of us can do. The ball is in their court. How many lies do they tell to justify their behavior. I’m sorry but in my good old American mind there is nothing that justifies estrangement except physical and mental abuse. And I’m not talking about bringing children up with a pat to the backside or yelling at them to pick up their toys. I’m saying hard core beating or alcoholism or use of words so harmful that the child has no sense of self because of it.
We have all done and are doing the punishment to ourselves never knowing the crime we committed.

Yes Rhinestone, I hear you. It takes two to forgive. Each of us can only do our best. We can’t control what others do, think or how they act.

We can only choose how we respond.

I know how hard it is to accept that people we love and want in our lives don’t want us in theirs. Rejection is so painful

But what can we do but to direct our love to those who do value us and love us?

But always leaving the door open ........

Hi Pythagorous you asked if there's anything we, as estranged parents and GP's can do to stop feeding the negativity that estrangement brings.

For me, accepting the finality of our estrangement, that my relationship with my son was over, that I would most likely never know my only GC, eventually starved the overwhelming negativity that was taking over my life.

It stopped growing and gradually begun to diminish. It's still there to a certain extent and realistically I think it always will be. I don't think that pain of such magnitude will ever go away.

Not attempting to reach out, make contact and eventually not trying to make sense of something that made, and makes no sense at all, gave me the time to focus on those who value and love me.

My door isn't open but it is there. It's there for our ES to knock on if he so wishes. I have no idea what my response would be if he did so, I do know though that I'd rather he didn't.

I prefer him to get on with his life so that I can get on with my mine. When it happened I didn't think I could have a life without him but I was wrong.

About 2 years in to our estrangement I asked Mr. S. if he thought we'd ever be happy again; he said 'yes' and was right. We're happy and I want us to stay that way.

Rhinestone "we have all done and are doing the punishment to ourselves never knowing the crime we committed". A powerful message and so right. As we are the ones who are dishing out our punishment, we are the only ones who can bring it to an end.

Smileless that’s nice input. I have decided against keeping a memory box for my GCs as I would have to lock them away out of sight. The constant memory would not allow me to move on. I also thought that if the kids ever received them, it would create more pain and questions for them and I am not going to set them against their own parents. I had already set up grandparents savings accounts for the kids and I will leave those. I won’t react anymore to what has happened but I too will try to keep busy, realise my own identity and be happy. I actually found that I could go to the shops today and not cry every time I saw people with families. All the mans were out looking after GC. I may be missing out but so are my GCs too.

Soupernan I'm glad that you were able to go shopping today and not be upset to see families with their children enjoying the build up to Christmas.

It's hard to know what to do for the best isn't it. Memory boxes, savings accounts or an inheritance left from GP's never known will raise questions but maybe not for the first time. Maybe the questions that will be asked when we're no longer here will have been asked in the past but remained unanswered.

Do we have the right to cause problems between our AC and their parents? No I don't believe we do. Do our GC have the right to know that we loved them, remembered their birthdays and thought about them at Christmas? Yes, I believe they do. But I don't know if it's possible to achieve the latter without risking the former.

TBH what ever we do or don't do will leave questions un answered unless their parents provide them with the answers they seek.

Parents who deny their children their GP's will inevitably have questions to answer. Their children may well be angry and/or dissatisfied with their parents actions and their reasons for doing what they've done. That's the risk that they take but perhaps not one they've ever considered.

I have things put away to go in our memory box. Cards sent but never received, little things bought from time to time when the urge was too great to resist.

I want them to have a photo of the GGM's they never knew, and perhaps of uncles, aunts and cousins. I want them to know what we looked like, where we lived and something of our history because it's their history too.

If we never see them and get to know them we will know nothing of them but if we leave them something, no matter how small, at least they will know a little of us, even if it's just that we loved them.

How sad all this is.....I have not reached the estrangement point yet......but my older son has been unbelievably mean to me, accusing me of all sorts, including that I really don't care about his little girls and says he cannot "trust" me. I don't know why and I haven't asked. They love their kids and so, I am almost sure it is for their sake alone, they have told me I could go for an hour to hand over their gifts. The visit will be stressful but my conscience won't let me wash my hands off those innocent kids, who did me no wrong .
What a way to live eh?

Anyone feeling very sad this Christmas.
All I hear is spending time with families , family time , spirit of Christmas.
I won't be seeing my GC over Christmas at all, what granny wouldn't want to spend time with their GC.. I know my GC would like to see me.. just incredibly sad, my AC just has terms and conditions for us, just sad, any coping mechanisms.. ???

Sorry Aquamarine......that must be so hard. You say "us", so I'm presuming you have a partner. I'm also presuming your grandchildren are by one AC. I have 3 children and 6 grandchildren, 4 of whom I see regularly, the other two, I see sporadically.
As for coping mechanisms, it may be a bit too late now, but if I were you, I would get away from all this Christmas hype and go to a country where Xmas is not a big thing, perhaps the Middle East or Morocco or similar. It will be a nice break from all the Xmas trees, Xmas lights, Xmas songs in the shops etc etc. I'm not too fond of Xmas either....I'm divorced with complicated family dynamics. Wish you well

Aquamarine. Just focus on those around you and try not to dwell on your broken heart. Watch some good Christmas TV films that will distract you. If you have another half, invest your time there. Think about what you have, not want you haven’t got. My first Xmas with GCs too, but I am bracing myself. Time to think about yourself again and take care of you. X Set your own T&Cs too!

Soupernan, did you mean "my first Xmas with GC" or "without GCs". If you meant the latter I am so sorry, but if it's your first with the GC, I hope you have a great time together .

I meant first xmas without them. Very sad and i am on my own. I have another child tho and he is kind to me so i wont be totally on my own.