Support for all who are living with estrangement

Oh BradfordLass72 my heart aches for you too - 15 years. I don't know how you bear it.
You're not moaning Dolcelatte - your pain is yours to share too, and I thank you for sharing your story and the fact there is a glimmer of light in the future maybe somehow, even if it's only acceptance and strength.
After a fitful night I feel a bit more rational myself. I realise I'm not actually in a worse position than I was, I just know it now. Maybe knowing what the situation really is, rather than just being in the dark, is a step in the right direction.
I don't know what to do about anything yet, and I will still see what happens with DH trying to make more contact, but I do feel slightly less 'invested' in the meeting. I'd been pinning my hopes on something happening for so long and now I hope something good does, but certainly don't think it will, and I think maybe that's where I need to try and keep my head - a little hope, but no expectation.
Thank you all again.

Hdh74 My heart goes out to you, your anguish and confusion are evident from your latest post. You do not deserve this appalling treatment and you absolutely should not define yourself by this. It is apparent from all of your posts that you are a lovely, caring woman, who is deeply loved by her husband and daughter, and I am sure has many friends (including the ones on here).

I think, for the sake of your health and peace of mind, you do now need to step back a bit, as this situation is bringing you nothing but pain. I stopped communicating with ED eventually, as each failure to respond seemed like (was!) a fresh rejection. Her sister just stopped communicating immediately, as the relationship was causing her pain too, and that has worked for her. She refers to ED as a tumour which she has cut out. Horrible thing to say, but there is some truth in it. We do now have increasing contact, but it has taken a long time and perhaps a period of estrangement or NC was necessary for the relationship to ultimately develop in a different way. Who knows, only time will tell, and time is a huge factor in these situations.

I am very interested in Cherries' posts which make a lot of sense. My ED told us before the estrangement that she thought she was bipolar, which she then modified to borderline personality disorder. Her partner is almost certainly on the spectrum, a classic case of Apergers, very clever in some respects but is very socially awkward and doesn't engage with anyone. They don't seem to have any friends although my ED used to have some very close friends, who have also been cut off.

Anyway, I didn't come on here to moan about myself, just to tell you that you are not alone and that it really does get better. The pain doesn't entirely go away, of course, but it does become a lot less intense. Something like this knocks you for six because it eats away at the very foundation of who you are, but you can be rebuilt and you will be stronger, I promise.

You cannot allow anyone, even your own child, to have such power over you. It is not fair to you or to the other people who love you if all of your energy is used up on someone who, at present, quite frankly doesn't deserve it.

I spent years wondering what I'd done to make my son, almost overnight, become bitter and offensive when formerly he phoned and we'd have long jolly conversations.
My younger son pointed out that it was NOT me, it was his brother.
There does not have to be a concrete reason, just one in HIS head which has convinced him.

I have not heard from my son for almost 15 years but I hope Doodle is right when she says one day it will all come right.

But it's not a new problem, even Shakespeare knew of it.

How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child

Thank you for being there all. Sorry my brain is fried atm so I'm really struggling to answer all the questions, even for myself, never mind to write anything down. I feel like a bomb dropped on me.
He doesn't drink or do drugs Joyfulnanna
In a nutshell he always needed a lot of attention as a child. He was so hyperactive he was practically bouncing off the walls as a toddler. At school he was gifted but unmotivated and the school struggled to get him to do his work. When he was 6 they told me he was well below average but was doing his best. I was gobsmacked as I knew he was clever. When I told them a couple of the things he could do they didn't believe me at first, but when they checked they were shocked to find he was really bright (more than I realised) but was basically not doing any work at all. They said it was a common problem with gifted kids and wrote a statement out for him, but getting him to pay attention at school was a long-term problem. I felt I was constantly trying to encourage him and work with the school but it was really uphill. Somehow he got to Oxford though.
I always tried to help him best I could, but I got ill, a lot, and I know I wasn't always there for him when I was ill, emotionally I was tied up in my illness a lot. I remember once collapsing and whilst I was prone he stormed off to his room. He clearly couldn't handle it and reacted with anger. (not at me, at the situation) I was worried about him but unable to do anything and when I could I remember saying to DH, see if he's ok, but DH was too worried about me. And somehow neither of us ended up talking to him about it properly, which was a mistake of course.
Other than that he didn't seem to get angry a lot. But looking back I think he put up walls that I didn't see until it was too late. I thought I was respecting his boundaries but he seems to feel I should have tried harder to reach out to him. At university he seemed to push us away and DH still says he started acting like he was too good for us. I wasn't sure what was going on but he did pull away and he did seem to act like he knew better than us. I thought he was just finding his feet and needed space. It seems DS now says he was depressed and I should have known that and tried harder to reach him. After Uni he moved away. I didn't see him regularly but went down and helped him clean the flat a few times (he now says that was me being controlling). I used to ring him in the evening or at weekends but he always said I'll ring you later, I'm busy. Then he would ring me when he was walking home from work and I'd really struggle to hear him for the traffic noise but try and chat. I always felt he was too busy but DS says I wasn't interested in him.
I think, and I'm just guessing, that I tried too hard to help him, because of all the school problems and because I wanted to do better than my parents, and then couldn't keep it up when I got ill and it felt like a huge rejection. Also, I don't think we talked with him enough. We weren't brought up to talk about stuff much, just get on with it, and neither me or DH find it comes naturally to talk in depth about things all the time, and I do know DS thinks this was lacking.
I do know I made mistakes, but I thought he was working towards telling me what he wanted to say but instead it seems he's been pulling further and further away and blaming it on me.
I really can't get my head around the letter thing, he's saying I lied about sending him a letter to DD and DH to get them on side and manipulate them into thinking I was being nice. But when I e-mailed to say hope you got my letter he never said he hadn't received it. And he's now saying that e-mail was to manipulate him as well. But I don't even understand how that even makes sense. DD read the letter and saw me go to post it but he says that's just her sticking up for me. DH thinks he probably got it but didn't open it.
He says all my e-mails have been to manipulate him into talking to me - but surely it's not wicked to want him to tell me what's wrong? I have been trying to give him the time and space to tell me when he's ready, just sending him e-mails every few months, saying I love you, and I'm ready to listen whenever, and I'm here for you, and now he's saying I should have been asking him how he was and how his work is going - but he literally never replied to anything and pretty much said via DD that he didn't want that sort of conversation.
DH was initially saying he's ashamed of how DS is behaving, that he can't believe he's become so selfish and cruel, and that he was never like that.
But after cooling off himself a bit he says he thinks DS is at best really messed up and at worst mentally ill. That the things he's saying really don't add up and aren't rational. DH also says he thinks DS has been 'brainwashed by the therapist'.
The truth is me and DH have no idea what to do. What DS seems to want is to control his relationship with DH and DD and push me out / pretend I don't exist. Because we think he might be troubled, rather than cruel, DH is going to see if he can have another contact with DS before he leaves (if he hasn't already) - but we may have pushed too hard (or not hard enough? - DH now says I should have barged in and read DS the riot act as he's behaving like a - but I didn't want to barge into our DDs home and chase him away from his sister).
We have heard he's pushed friends away too and he seems lonely. But I don't know anything for sure. I'm so worried about him as well as being hurt but feel totally powerless to do anything.
Your strategy sounds really logical Cherries but there's no way DS would even listen to anything remotely on those lines. He won't engage with me at all. While DH did consider saying, if you don't want mum in your life that goes for both of us, we both think DS really needs help. I could try writing some of the things you suggest in a letter Cherries but then will he read it, will he say he didn't get it? I feel like I've kept trying to reach out to him and he sees it all as some kind of manipulation or gets angry at it whatever I do. DD once said to him, 'she can't do right can she, whatever she does you'll be angry' and he admitted that was true but that the fault still lies with me but he still won't tell me anything at all.
I can keep on trying to reach out if that's the right-thing, or let him live his life without me if that's what he truly needs, the trouble is I just don't know what really will help him. (and I don't think he knows what he wants from me if anything) And I don't know what's right for the rest of us.

Thank you so much for letting me ramble-on. And for all of your wonderful insights. I'm a teary mess atm but I owe it to my wonderful DH and DD and myself to try and pull myself back up. Just not quite ready yet. x

Hdh, you've had a huge shock today..you DH was quite brave and had to bear the brunt of your DS anger. However painful this is to hear, the complete lack of decency your DS shows proves that he doesn't deserve your patience, generosity and love. He's enjoying the cruelty and power.. Its despicable behaviour and bad for your health. Has he been prone to such outbursts as a child, was he particularly spiteful and unforgiving when he was growing up? Was he bullied at school? Was he easily led or influenced. Maybe he's on drugs or drinks too much, maybe he loses his temper regularly. In previous relationships was he verbally or physically abusive.. Did he ever have any strong dislikes towards others in the past. Turning all his anger on you helps him absolve all responsibility for any of his own traits he may not like.. I believe he's angry with himself but cannot change. You've done the right thing by making your own statement loudly..feel proud of yourself..take care now.

hdh74

How vile and deeply hurtful this must be. No wonder it is hard to process. Is your DH able to soothe and comfort you and boost your morale? Do you have anyone else to confide in?

I wonder what a psychodynamically trained therapist/counsellor might say e.g. would (s)he suggest that your DS could be "splitting" and "projecting" angrily? If you decide to see someone like this, I hope that they can help by shedding possible light and making it a bit less personal - therefore a bit less upsetting - for you.

Your DS appears to be extremely focussed on himself just now as a perceived victim of manipulation. It is hugely unfair on you if he has not yet given you a decent explanation in a reasonably calm and respectful fashion of why he believes this to be the case. It also seems hugely unfair to keep you apparently in a situation where you cannot please or mollify him at all.

I would adopt a cooler, semi-detached tone in my language with DS in future - although it would be at odds with what I really felt and wanted to say - and would definitely set some clear boundaries regarding further communication or contact. A tiny bit of praise and validation at the beginning might be useful as well.

e.g. "It was good that you wanted to speak with Dad(DH today and tried to connect through him. Dad/DH tells me that you are furious with me and, although it will be difficult for me, I think that the next step is for me to try to listen to you soon in the hope of understanding a bit more about why you feel this way about me and see me as you do. I'd like to know more about how this attitude towards me has developed over time.

The next get-together or two will only be with both Dad/DH and me present, however, and only in the following public or semi-public place ... (If other people are present in the park/cafe/wherever, DS is likely to be more careful about how he speaks.) Dad/DH and I agree on this and will not tolerate abusive language or shouting at either of us. All of us need to make every effort to be respectful of each other.

Your talking carefully with me will make it easier for me to think carefully about what you are saying and begin to acknowledge and apologise for things which you tell me I have done and/or not done for which I know that I have been partly or wholly responsible and that have offended or hurt you. No-one is perfect and I admit that I have made mistakes in my life, as have we all. Having said/typed that, I also hope that you will also be able to bear to listen to some extent to my perspective and do a bit of conscience-searching too."

If you send an email like this, you could sign off from both you and your DH to underscore that you are united as a couple and therefore you are less vulnerable to being the target of "splitting" and game-playing.

We are with you in spirit

Hdh I will respond soon.. Just watching Line of Duty

hdh74 are you sure we don't share a son? Even the things he says like "oh I didn't get the letter (text/message/whatsapp)"
etc are identical. It's not you, it's him. I have to admit I've probably not read the entire history of this but was he like a perfect loving son before all this blew up or have you felt you were having to handle him with kid gloves and/or he didn't care much about his relationship with you for some years?

Another very meaningful post cherries
So today did not go well. When DH got there, DDs neighbour was taken ill and DD ended up calling an ambulance and going to hospital with neighbour. DH had to follow to take DDs wheelchair. So DH ended up spending more time alone with DS - which was apparently going well till DH said, 'so when are you going to talk to mum?' - and in DH's words, 'I got a diatribe of hatred against you, and he said you're a lying manipulative bitch..' When DH said, 'I don't think this is right' he was told, 'you're all ganging up on me.'
Some months ago, after no contact for ages (as DS requested) I asked DD to ask DS if I could write to him. He said yes. So I wrote a very heart-felt letter. I asked DD to read it through, as she was in contact with him, in case I inadvertently put anything which might cause upset or offence. I wasn't really surprised when I got no reply. So I wrote an email saying" Thinking of you. My heart is full of love for you. I hope you got my letter and I hope it was ok for you to read. I know you're not ready for me to be in your life for real but please take this little bit of love I'm sending, no strings, no expectations, just love you."
(I save my emails as I forget what i wrote and don't want to repeat myself so I still have it)
Again no reply.
Today, he said he didn't get the letter, and that my emails are just me trying to manipulate him and are all about me. I have other emails and I really don't think they are all about me. Tbh I don't know up from down atm, I'm second guessing myself so much.
I have no idea whether he got the letter or not, but I remember getting DD to check the address and she watched me go out to post it. I just don't know what's going on. DS also said I never ask how he is. But he told me to go no contact, and also said he hates me acting like everything is normal when it's not, so I just kept sending my love and saying I'm ready to listen when you want to talk. He thinks that is me being manipulative.
So DH said that basically s DS wants DH and DD in his life but unless I do something he's written me off. DH drove me round to DD and practically begged DS to speak to me, but he said, 'if she comes in, I'm leaving, now.'
I didn't go in but shouted that I love him and left. Pretty pathetic I spose but I guess if it's the last thing I'm allowed to say to him at least it's what I want him to know.
Gutted. This will take some processing. And neither DH or me fancy the Easter dinner that I left cooking.

I'm pretty sure that most of us are made to feel "like blooming Voldermort", hdh74! ? Shall we start a club?

Having come across the word "splitting" before, I looked it up again recently and think that this is the gist. "Splitting" is apparently a common defence mechanism in which other people are regarded as "good" - therefore idealized - or "bad" and therefore devalued. The person who is using the defence focusses selectively on the others' perceived positive or negative qualities.

One example of this is when a parent views one offspring as the "golden child" who is special, more loveable and a source of pride while the other child is seen as mediocre and less worthy etc. Another example, I suppose, occurs when one set of GPs or a single GP within a couple is seen by a parent as all-wonderful and the other as deeply flawed.

I've been reading that splitting is an example of an "all-or-none" thinking style. It is an immature outlook in which no or little allowance is made for the fact that all human beings have a mixture of positive, negative and neutral or in-between qualities. Similarly, there is no recognition of nuance or other "grey areas". People who use this defence a lot are thought also to have a hard time tolerating conflicting or difficult emotions in themselves when in contact with others. Their relationships can suffer because of the severe disillusionment that they experience when these others fail to meet expectations that may not have been expressed and agreed upon in the first place.

If splitting is happening subconsciously, the "splitter" may not even be aware of using this defence as a way of coping.

Splitting seems to be used quite a lot, it is thought, by people with borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality traits or disorder. It is also recognised among people with certain diagnosed psychotic disorders. I don't know about other mental health disorders.

If I understand correctly, people with strong narcissistic tendencies are thought to have fragile self-esteem and to feel very insecure even although they may appear to be very confident. They are prone to seeing themselves as victims when conflict or disagreement occurs and prone to regarding the other person EXCLUSIVELY as the WRONGDOER. Following a spat, they are likely to lose respect for the other person and to ALIENATE or PUSH that PERSON AWAY.

While it's probably important not to get carried away and assume that everyone who is involved in our partial or total estrangement has a full-blown personality disorder of any sort, I'm willing to bet good money that some lean in this direction. That is, they are somewhere on the spectrum.

A person with narcissistic traits, for example, seems to be vulnerable to "narcissistic injury", with anger (ranging from aloofness, passive-aggression and irritability to outbursts of violence and rage) being a common reaction. Other feelings that (s)he may experience include shame, guilt, disgust and anxiety. Narcissistic injury can occur when the vulnerable person thinks that her/his concealed "true" (unworthy/inferior/unloveable/imperfect etc.) self has been revealed or thinks that her/his importance has been questioned.

Narcissistic people appear to be very likely to come across as being very self-centred, controlling or manipulative, largely uncaring about others' needs, wishes, views and feelings and often unreasonable or unfair in their thinking and behaviour. In their close relationships, they are thought prone to projecting harsh inner thoughts about themselves onto their partners/parents/parents-in-law/friends/whoever else etc. - projection being another defence mechanism - and to treat these individuals as enemies who need to be punished or kept at a great and therefore comfortable distance.

It is often suggested that how to deal with a person like this - possibly using "splitting" and "projection" and with narcissistic tendencies - depends on your goal and that it is wise to accept that (s)he is unlikely to change unless
1. (s)he becomes more aware of having a pattern of difficult close relationships that could stem from problems and experiences in herself/himself and her/his youth
2. (s)he enters therapy or tries self-help

I hope that this is useful and am interested to read your thoughts.

Long may this beautiful weather last!

hdh74 now I understand more why your DH is going along with this devious plot if he's working with your DD to restore the family to some sort of equilibrium, but that ultimately cannot exclude you or it's dead in the water. Voldermort? Good that you have a sense of humour still.

It seems from afar that your S builds up some kind of irrational dislike of people who may have crossed him and they are to be alienated.That is my SiL exactly and it's very difficult to cope with because they are intransigent. They are right. My SiL prides himself of being a good judge of the criminals he deals with at work, but he's got me wrong!

I think doing routines and keeping busy is the way to go. This weekend is incredibly tense for you. I presume he's chosen this one because he's on holiday, no consideration that you would have liked a happy, peaceful Easter.

Sending you good wishes across the miles for a satisfactory outcome. xx

Sorry, got that last sentence mixed up with something else (Internet error)! It should read, "But maybe the renewed contact with dh is a beginning." Iows, maybe it will lead to uniting the whole family eventually. I hope so.

Thanks for updating us, hdh74! Poor dh! He is clearly in a difficult place, always having to choose between you, his dw, and ds. I think dh is handling it very well though. Imo, it's good that he has re-established a relationship with ds, but glad he refused to leave you alone on Easter. He is walking a very fine line and that's not easy.

I'm sorry you're being left out, hoco ever. I know that must really hurt. It does seem that ds is trying to have everything all his way - to co you from events, but still have the rest of his family (dh and dd). But maybe that contact deserves a reply.

No, I can understand DH's dilemma, and it's really wrong of your son to put him in this position. If he wants to keep in touch with DH he should have asked to meet up with him on a day that less significant than Easter day. Otherwise it just looks like he's picked that day to try and give you a miserable Easter alone.

I know DS is being a sod atm readymeals but (sorry for the drip-feed my life is complicated) part of the reason DH is fitting in is because we know DD is struggling - she'd desperate to fix our family but she is disabled and needs carers to help her with daily life. Accomodating our DS will be a huge strain on her, but she really wanted to. So DH also wants to take some of the strain off her.
Thank you for your kind words @joyfulnana - I really do feel as though you lovely people are holding my hands atm and hugely helping me at a difficult time. My love and gratitude to you all, and healing wishes to your families.
Anyhow I've cleaned the bathroom (figures I might as well do a task I detest on a rubbish day and get it done) and prepped a meal for when DH comes home. Having lunch then off out in the lovely sunshine to cut some rhubarb and make a crumble.
Hugs all. x

hdh74 your son (I'd drop the D prefix) sounds like a calculating bully who is making a point of inviting your DH in order to make it extra clear he's excluding you. This goes beyond simply deciding to stay away from you and has gone into deliberate cruelty territory. He might have done you a favour - who wants a bully of a child in their lives when they become really old and frail and vulnerable? I doubt if my words are making you feel any better but I hope you eventually find your own way to feel better. x

Happy Easter girls. I wish you all well. Let's all hold hands together and hope for some positive outcomes..my thoughts go out to all who are missing their GC. I would also like to wish hdh74 some comfort today and tomorrow, I know your mind is racing but sounds like you've got a good DH who will do his best..if he doesn't want to discuss you with them, he can still say that you've never stopped loving your DS and DD.

How bizarre, but good luck to your DH anyway and I have everything crossed for a happy ending for all of you, if not immediately, then a little further down the road.

My DS is in his mid thirties Dolcelatte
So DS has texted DH - as well as the birthday meal tomorrow he's now invited DH to spend day with them today, and eat out today as well. I had got stuff out to make a meal for Easter for the two of us, so hubby has said he's eating with me today but will meet them either before or after. Hubby is pacing and can't work out how to handle it.
DS seems to be acting like everything is normal between him, DD and DH, and I don't exist at all. Apparently when I was mentioned by others he just went quiet and said nothing then carried on like nothing had happned. I feel like I'm blooming Voldermort!
I can stay home and binge eat chocolate today at least!

hdh74 We are in a similar position so I totally empathise and will be very interested as to how it goes and to receive any tips. Do we just chat and catch up on everyday things and pretend that the absence hasn't happened, or do we try to talk things through and run the risk that they run away? Probably play it by ear, I guess.

You are totally right about victim role playing and not realising it, no doubt influenced and encouraged by the DP, who is very controlling. But yes, we hope for the crack to become ajar to become wide open again. How old is your DS? I do think some of these issues stem from a lack of maturity in our AC. You can't chase and give them the upper hand, you need to keep your cool, play a long game, and wait for them to grow up. It's horrible to have to play these games with someone you love so deeply, but there is no other way, unfortunately.

Good luck and a very happy Easter, time of resurrection and new beginnings, hopefully for all of us.

Hdh74
I particularly like your post uploaded at 12.47 yesterday. It is very Christian of you and good for us all to read on this Easter Sunday morning. They are good values and my values too. Unfortunately this younger generation has this sense of entitlement. That is what we are up against. Mind yourself as best you can as l must do too. Take care everyone. Dawn.

Thank you all. I totally know we are being maniupulated. I doubt DS is even aware he is doing so though, I think he is so caught up in feeling like the victim and needing to control everything on his terms that he can't even see he's doing it. He lives 200 miles away, and is only in the area for a few days, staying with our DD, so I can swallow my hurt for a few days in the hope that DH and DS can at least get to a point where opening a dialogue might be possible. When you have zero contact there is literally nothing you can do, this way, there is possiblity however slim.
And no DS can't have it all his own way forever, that works for nobody, but I think DH has to wait till the door is open a crack before trying any degree of open communication.
DH wants to say something but he can tell that if he does so straight away, this is their first meeting in 3 years after all and their distance communication has been very rare and brief, DS will just bolt. I had an early night, sulked, and feel ready to face the day and wait and see what happens tomorrow.
Happy Easter you wonderful lot.

Was thinking about you last night HDH74. Incredibly difficult for you. None of us want to cut the ties, so DH going does seem like a light at the end of a long tunnel.
Having come through sort of similar and with hindsight I think you are both being manipulated. His rules or you're out. So sorry if this sounds negative when things are so awful.
Cherries commented previously on all the difficulties we as GP's are up against now compared to our own relationship with our parents and GP's. They are so accurate, they milk us dry and throw us away, well that's how I feel.
I wish you and DH strength to deal will all this.

Oh HDH74 you're braver than I. I fear your DH is being manipulated and in turn so are you. This is incredibly hurtful to you and you are being very stoic about wanting there to be a relationship between father and son, to the exclusion of yourself.

I can see the point of keeping the lines open, but only if it's with a view to you being included in the new style relationship.

That doesn't seem to be on the agenda. It's your son's agenda and he's controlling both of you. Unless they will discuss how they can overcome whatever the obstacle is to including you, his mother, in family events, I don't see how the relationship with his DF can continue either.

You are being incredibly brave.

Oh my God HDH74, I'm with you on feeling very upset.. I know exactly how you feel. Your DH is in the middle but he must be assertive too..because your DS is manipulative..hes testing your DH. I don't see the point in him going. I think he should decline and tell your DS something has come up.. Make your DS puzzle about it..but suggest instead to your DS that they meet again to keep lines of communication open. Sorry if I am giving you unwelcome advice but your DS is playing games at your expense..