Support for all who are living with estrangement

Wow cherries. Brilliant social commentary and so eloquently put. I understand that people need to break sometimes from family to find their way in the world, and maybe they see this as a way of being independent, and don't know how to do it without being completely selfish. Maybe they hate strongly because it justifies cutting off their family. The strong self rightous truth that they have convinced themselves of creates division which can go on for months and years. They disingage with people who urge them to forgive and fuel the fire of more hate which perpetuates. I believe this has happened with my DD.. She surrounds herself with people who are insecure through their life experiences or lack of financial or emotional security.. They goad her into keeping up with the Estrangement, just as much as she does. Of that were not the case, she would make contact.

Another amazing post Cherries. So much of that makes sense to me.
So DH met DS and they went for a long walk for a couple of hours. Basically DH talked about his life and made it all sound rosy but DH said he could tell if he said anything that wasn't on DH's agenda there would be no further discussion. So I wasn't mentioned at all. So DH has agreed to meet DS, along with DD and her partner for a meal on Monday - so basically the birthday celebration, minus me, that DS wants. I had said to DH that he should do whatever he felt right to try and build the start of some kind of communication so I'm not cross with DH for capitulating when he said he wouldn't go out without me. But having had DS manipulate DD for 3 years, it feels to me like he's setting out to do the same with DH - everything according to DS's agenda and if anyone disagrees with him or mentions me he won't speak to them any more.
DH says he needs to build something with DS before he can try and get him to talk about things he doesn't want to address. This totally makes sense to me, but I seriously doubt whether DS will actually allow things to move to anywhere he doesn't want.
Trying to remain hopeful till after Monday, but I'm probably kidding myself.
And despite being an old grown up I feel childishly upset that I'm getting pushed out of my own family.

Thank you, ladies, for your positive comments.

Loving this warm weather!

Joyfulnanna, do you also think that a cultural shift may have taken place, alongside a weakening of traditional ideas and values? Some columnists, especially of the satirical sort, who comment on present day social trends seem to be in the habit of observing in their articles characteristics that crop up here quite a bit in our thinking about the younger generation of parents, e.g.:

apparent inclination to make hasty
judgements and impulsive decisions

fondness for micro-management and for issuing diktats, with the expectation of total and unquestioning compliance (common in many workplaces)

apparently holding a strong, self-righteous and indignant belief that personally held attitudes are wholly correct and superior - "It's my truth!" - and that there is no need or that it is frankly outrageous to be asked to regard them more cautiously, introduce one or two grey areas and complexity or to discuss them at any length

dramatic/exaggerated statements

emotional reasoning (for example, "Because I FEEL x about person y, my negative view of person y must be right. Feelings are an infallible guide to reality."

valuing individuality, independence and self-sufficiency more highly than belonging to. benefitting from, caring about and contributing to the welfare of the extended family

relative disinterest in or devaluing of stories about family origins, history and roots

reluctance to admit to mistakes, apologise and try to learn from them

focus on trying to maintain a perfect image, possibly because of pressure associated with social media

In relation to "difficult" family members, I also remember from my youth and young adulthood that there was a fair amount of tolerance laced with wry humour, the humour being a coping strategy, I suppose, stories and speculation about why they might be difficult, recognition that everyone has quirks and can behave badly at times and generally a compassionate and INCLUSIVE approach. There were references, for example, to some older relatives having had very troubled childhoods and/or dealt with various disturbing experiences and losses in later life which had probably or possibly affected them deeply.

Some good points starlady and yes I have pulled back now and left the ball in his court. DH is now on his way to see him for the first time in 3years so I'm hoping he will throw some light on how things stand at least.
Amazing post Cherries - you explained some things that I was touching on way better than I was managing to, and gave me some more things to thing about. Thank you.
And you worded it well too joyfulnanna - yes we all know family members and old friends who can be difficult at times, and we might even have a wee chunter about them with our closest ones when they're stepped on our toes too much, but we try and understand and tolerate - that is exactly what seems to have gone out of the window these days.
I've been keeping busy today not to brood so the house is quite tidy, the grass cut and the garden looking nice, and I'm going to quietly get on my hobbies while DH is out.
Wishing you all a happy Easter, or a lovely sunny weekend if you don't celebrate it.

Lots of extremely profound things to contemplate..thanks Cherries.
I do think hdh has hit the nail on the head, the advice about ridding yourself of people you consider toxic should not include family.. It is about understanding and tolerance. I remember family members sharing stories about cousins, uncles, aunts and other extended family who were "difficult people" but the difference was that we discussed why, and showed sympathy for them. Now, it all seems to be that we push family away, cut them off and think of ourselves. What happens when you realise you're not perfect and someone does that to you.. I think of my DD and her rash, absolute decisions and how that's going to affect her in the future. How she's going to have to keep explaining to my GS that I'm "on holiday" or is she just going to tell him he's never going to see me again. I am sorry but I get quite angry at her still at cutting me off from him so suddenly. I think of the damage its doing to him. Sometimes when my little devil sits on my shoulder, I secretly hope he does it to her one day then she'll know how it feels, the selfish bitch

Happy Easter/Passover/holiday weekend to you all!

I like your post very much, hdh74, and see it as part of a growing collection of signposts to possible ways of correcting problems that may stem in large part from cultural changes in recent years. Perhaps this goes hand in hand with the decline of religious influence in the western world - e.g. concerning how we should relate to each other, the importance of the family and of the attempted passing on of wisdom and guidance from the older generation to the younger one.

Online self-help videos and self-help books, together with therapy and counselling and other fields, may be placing too much emphasis on some notions at the expense of others and suggesting drastic "fixes" which encourage the swift branding, undermining, exclusion and rejection of family members who are viewed oversimplistically and in a hyperjudgemental and immature way.

There may be too many messages and examples or role models "out there", for example, to do with entitlement to cause hurt and offence by being what we might call "in-your-face rude" rather than assertive-while-respectful, to do with the reasonableness of being quick to take offence and of continuing to bear a grudge, to do with creating distance and to do with the desirability of severing relationships which are going through bad patches but could recover and flourish, with little apparent regard for the negative consequences.

Fellow grannies, can we work together to make a list of qualities and ideas that we would like those whom we believe responsible for starting and maintaining (or colluding with) our estrangement, people who are currently thinking of following the estrangement route and perhaps also the users of Mumsnet to give renewed consideration and weight? What could we pull out from this and other threads on Gransnet?

What values, if I may be so old-fashioned, are associated with religious or other, traditional teachings about reaching out, trying to achieve a better understanding of the other person's perspective and history and to "grow" as a person, to accept that we are all imperfect beings and that perfection/utopia doesn't exist, that bullying and humiliating another person is a morally unacceptable way to behave ("Aim to treat others as you wish to be treated yourself"), to be willing to reflect on our own possible contributions to conflict, to bear in mind that tension between people can have multiple causes, to think about the future as well as the present ("If I cut off my child's GPs, how will/might that affect several of us in our extended family and why does/might this matter?"), to build bridges where possible, to be reluctant to condemn, to be prepared to examine our own conduct, to be aware of others' needs and dignity as well as our own and to try to show some humility, lovingkindness, appreciation, tolerance and forgiveness?

"...a lot of the advice seems to be about putting yourself first and getting rid of toxic people from your life. Little seems to be said about mending things and building bridges. More is said about asserting yourself than about listening... a lot of the values I grew up with to do with loyalty and compassion seem to have been lost somewhere."

Hdh, I definitely think values have shifted. And it would be easy enough to say, we need to shift with them. Except that in a situation like yours, Idk what that would mean since the ball seems to be totally in ds' court right now. Maybe it's just a matter of pulling back, not sending any further letters or emails, etc. and being patient and just waiting for him to reach out to you. But I imagine you're already doing that. I hope dh's meeting with him goes well.

Yes, Smileless, it's good to have this lovely weather for Easter. Glad to see you and Mr.S. are enjoying it so much in your delightful home! So glad you've gotten to the point where you can be really happy.

Happy Easter, everyone! Or if anyone here celebrates Passover, then best wishes for that holiday!

"I always say we are imperfect people who became imperfect parents and did our best to raise our imperfect children"... Well-said, Smileless. Unfortunately, some ac can't seem to accept any imperfections in parents or don't seem to see that they are imperfect, too.

"I had a difficult relationship with my own parents... And yet I forgave them time and time again" Hdh, could it be that ds thinks you forgave them too often? And that he doesn't want to make what he thinks was the same mistake? Imo, forgiveness is a beautiful thing, but maybe he sees it differently?

Yes it does seem like a huge reaction starlady and I totally agree with how you phrase it about us being imperfect smileless.
I had a difficult relationship with my own parents, I was actually genuinely abused in several ways, but my parents had their own problems, my mum had really severe mental health problems and my dad was an alcoholic. And yet I forgave them time and time again.
I do know that because my own upbringing wasn't good I've made mistakes - often from trying too hard to be not the same as my own parents in all honesty. But nothing I wouldn't have forgiven my parents for, and nothing neat as bad as things I did forgive them for.
I know a lot of young people read self-help books and talk to therapists of councellors these days - and a lot of the advice seems to be about putting yourself first and getting rid of toxic people from your life. Little seems to be said about mending things and building bridges. More is said about asserting yourself than about listening is my perception too. I'm not saying standing up for yourself isn't a skill we all need - I could do with being more assertive myself I know. But a lot of the values I grew up with to do with loyalty and compassion seem to have been lost somewhere.
And I'm off to do a bit of spring cleaning. Hope you all have a good day. xxx

It certainly is an over reaction isn't it Starlady. I always say we are imperfect people who became imperfect parents and did our best to raise our imperfect children.

Isn't it great to have some lovely weather for Easter.
Mr. S. has done his usual wonderful job with our roof terrace. Freshly painted white walls and beautiful spring flowers in hanging baskets, wall baskets and tubs.

The sky is a beautiful clear blue and I've been looking out at the sea and listening to the gulls. Nearly 2.5 years in our beautiful home and we love it more and more. Which reminds me, how's the house hunting going Dontaskme?

I wish you all peace and happiness this Easter.

Beautiful thought, Doodle!

Thanks for filling me in, hdh. I'm sorry it is taking ds so long to let you know what's in his heart. I'm no therapist, but I imagine you're right, he's afraid you'll argue with his version of events. Maybe he'll tell dh what it's all about when he sees him. I hope dh just listens and tells ds that he'll tell it to you and that the two of you will think it over. I know dh will be tempted to defend you, but if he does, it might push ds further away.

I have to admit I don't understand cutting a parent out over "a couple of things" from childhood. There are things my parents did that I think were mistakes, and yes, I even get mad sometimes if I think of them now. But they were good parents, overall, as I'm sure you were. They're gone now, but I can't imagine having not spoken to them for 3 years and counting when they were alive just because of "a couple of things." Surely, ds will regret the lost time, but he doesn't realize that now, I suppose.

Doodle

Thank you Doodle.

Lovely thought. Its been so long since I've seen them, I have become numb inside.. Its worse than grieving the loss of a dead relative

Doodle thank you for sharing

That's a very kind thought, Doodle

Forgive me for dropping in on your thread but I wanted to mention something that happened this morning. When I was saying my prayers this morning (being Good Friday) I was thinking in more depth than usual perhaps and about forgiveness. Out of the blue I thought of you smileless and about your post on another thread recently about faith. Into my mind came the thought that one day you and your estranged family (and all estranged families) will all be re-united in peace together. I am sorry for barging in on your thread and hope I haven’t offended anyone as that was far from my intention. I am not one who usually writes this sort of thing but as it came into my mind I just felt I had to write it down and as I don’t do PMs this was the only place I felt I could put it. Hope you all may find peace with your loved ones.

Just been having another catch up. Sorry I'm so erratic, I have regular bouts of ill-health then spend the rest of my time trying to play catch up with everything.
I'm sorry watching the video made you so sad aqua. Do what you need to do to get by Bopeep - putting things away to save some pain wouldn't make you awful at all. I know how you both feel, I do have some photos up and whenever I dust them I end up teary. Or I can be having a good spell, getting on with things, then someone mentions my DS and I feel myself fall apart in side.
Hubby is supposed to be meeing our son this weekend which is making me feel very sad to be left out, and a mixture of anxious and hopeful as to whether it could be the start of anything positive. By son hasn't actually confirmed anything (via our DD - as he isn't actually replying to her messages atm - he only talks to her when he feels like it).
Starlady - the history is that my our son was seeing a therapist and suddenly announced that he had worked out he was angry with me, but didn't know why. And he said he needed to work out why and wanted time to do so, with no contact from me. He said a few weeks - 3 years ago. He mostly stopped contact with his dad too - though he gives different reasons for that, vaguely, and had replied to the odd text from his dad wheras he ingnored all my letters and emails and texts. At some point he told our DD, who is the only one who gets 'sort-of' regular contact with him, that he has now worked out why he is angry with me, but isn't ready to tell me. She says she knows, but can't say, but she thinks what he remembers that he is angty about didn't happen like he remembers at all (a couple of things from when they were kids that she says she remembers herself but differently), and she said this to him once, so I think that's why he won't make contact, in case I say the same.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Starlady - no apology needed. You made me chuckle, bless you!

Strength and hugs to everyone x x

Thanks, Joyful and Aqua! I hope my posts are helpful. Some of it's just off the top of my head. Lots of hugs!

Starlady, I too like reading your posts, such wise words.
Bopeep, I still have photos in the house, you can't deny your grandchild's existence, and we have good memories don't we.... It doestnt particularly upset me but guess that depends on day.
Memories and reminders all round, what are we to do, curl under a stone ??? Tempting sometimes.
Ladies, it's a struggle, thank you for all support ....