Support for all who are living with estrangement

I agree that kids can feel grief, too, if a gp who was important in their lives is suddenly removed. That's why I don't get how parents can do this except in the most extreme circumstances. In some cases, I think they feel the gps have gotten "too close" to the gc, especially if they left gc in gp care a lot, etc. Then the parents have second thoughts about that gp/gc bond and try to loosen the ties. That's what I think Aqua's son and dil want to do, for example. And I get it a little bit if they think gm has "too much influence" or if even if they feel guilty that they didn't'couldn't give the kids more time themselves. But I don't see why they can't just lower contact in that case, rather than go nc altogether. Loosen the gp/gc bonds if they want, but not break them entirely.

I'm NOT saying that they should necessarily loosen those bonds. Just that if they want to, lowing contact would be enough. Why try to totally erase the gp from the child;s life?

They really can't anyway if the child is old enough to have fond memories of the gp. They're going to question it eventually, and they're not going to accept, "Gm was too busy" all the time. There will be comeuppance in some of these cases, even if the parents feel they had good reason to go nc. If they do, imo, they need to own it, and say something like, "We have issues with gramma." Anything less is cowardice, imo. Besides, lies and distortions won't work forever. Kids figure stuff out. For whatever those thoughts are worth.

Hdh, I think it was very unrealistic of ds to ask dh to celebrate his birthday without you, his wife. And very selfish, too, and cruel to put dh in that position. So kind of you to encourage dh to go, anyhow. But kudos to him for standing by you! Seems like you have a very loving marriage. Please take heart in that!

Bopeep, I'm sorry, but since ds just blocked you on fb, I don't think writing to him will be of any help. I know he promised to contact you and should have kept his word. But, clearly, he changed his mind for some reason. I understand the temptation to contact him and ask why, But given the circumstances, I wouldn't If you so, though, I agree that an email is the safer route.

Joyfulnana, I'm a little confused. You say there have geen emails back and forth... so ds is still in contact with you?

Carolina, I LOVE your story! I will keep your points in mind, just in case, and hope that some of the egps here find something in it for them.

Hmmm... about the issue of gps who don't want to spend time with their gc... is it really so "irrelevant to this thread?" If it's wrong for parents to keep gc from a relationship with their gps (except if the gps are abusive, etc.), then is it also wrong for gps to deny their gc a relationship with them? If the gp/gc relationship is valuable, and I believe it is, and if parents need to be forced to allow against their wishes, does it stand to reason that gps must also be forced to facilitate this against their wishes? Iows, does it work both ways? Maybe not, but imo, it's a legitimate question.

Cheerios, I get what you're saying about abuse, especially in light of the article you provided. But, imo, the problem with taking that stand is that the young parents probably won't buy it. They will continue to tell each other that they have a right to go nc, that they need to do it for their sanity or to protect the kids from "toxicity" or whatever. So where will it get anyone? We can say among ourselves that it's abuse, but I think we need to accept that the nc idea is the way of the day, be aware it could happen to us (if it hasn't already), and do whatever we can to avoid it's happening (again, if it hasn't, sadly, happened already).I know I've changed a few behaviors because of things Iv read here or seen happen to my friends. I don't think dd would go nc, but who knows? As painful as nc may be, it's an unfortunate reality of the times. Just my thoughts.

Namsnanny, my mind is reeling - are you saying they gave photos to everyone else in front of you but still none to you?

Joyful, oh dear, how awful to have the police call! It suggests what I often think, that legal advice often runs contrary to what works socially/for families. What gps are advised to do legally to show that they've "tried," can seem like "harassment" to their ac and cil. In this case, it ended up with a call to the police and may end in a non molestation order (sigh).

Did you get the legal advice from a solicitor? I hope you let them or whoever gave you the legal advice kn what happened. Attitudes of young adults have changed in recent years, it seems to me, and solicitors need to catch up with that. So do some therapists for that matter, imo, but that's a separate subject.

I definitely agree that you should take a breather for a while and think this over. You seem to have a good , but as others have said, taking any further action may just lead to more trouble.

If it's any comfort, this is not the first time Iv heard of ac calling the police on a parent in this kind of situation. It happened to a friend of mine and Iv seen it on other sites. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if dd got this idea from a musmnet or something. Iows, it's not just you or dd.

Thanks, Cheerios! And same back to you!

Aqua and ginny sent you pm's. Please reply. Thank you

Starlady - and hugs to you x

Ungranned, imo, dd's reaction to your moving was terribly selfish and unfair. I get her reacting that way, at first - she was "losing" a close support and someone who provided free and loving childcare for her son at least once a week. Not to mention that a new baby was coming and she may have anticipated needing additional childcare . But there is no rule that says gps "have to" be childminders, and after a while, she, clearly adjusted. That's why I think it's selfish of her to continue to hold a grudge like this. I'm so sorry.

I'm also sorry that ods turned the way he did. I understand if he started to see his sister's pov,, and he could have tried to speak for her if he wanted. But, imo, going so far as to co you and dh in sympathy with her was going too far.

Of course, you're in shock, etc. Glad you got some counseling and hope you continue. And please don't worry about "ranting." about how you feel. That's part f what this place is for.

Namsnanny, maybe Idk whereof I speak because I'm not estranged at the moment (who knows what the future holds?) though I do have friends who are. But, imo, your reaction is good, if only because you know you tried - and, in later years, you can tell your gc that you tried. Sorry you're feeling down today and sending hugs!

Dontask me, I'm glad you're coming to terms with your situation and have a "mission," as you call it, that helps you feel better. I don't want to raise false hopes, but isn't it possible that your gc will reach out to you when they are old enough to do so on their own? I know it doesn't necessarily happen, but Iv heard of it, even on here, I think. So you may see them again, even if, sadly, it's not for a long, long time.

And that's why, Aqua, I don't think gd will "forget all about" you. The fact that she expresses missing you shows you are an important person in her life. Her parents can loosen the ties , but they can't erase all the fond memories. Again, I don't want to raise false hopes, but I believe she will reach out to you again someday when she can do things on her own.

Oh, and I want to amend something I said earlier. I don't think as and dil are calling sister "grandma" out of respect for xh. I imagine it's for gd's sake. How can her great-aunt be married to grampa? Confusing for a child and yet a very messy situation to explain. I'm not crazy about the way the parents are handling it, but I suspect they don't want to have to tell her that people do what your xh and sister did. So they'd rather she not know that sister was ever that, your sister. I don't like this - secrets and lies - not a very good plan, imo. But it's a complicated situation that sister and xh created. And I'm not sure if there's any "good" way to handle it. I just hope that realizing that they might be calling sister "grandma" for gd's sake might make it easier for you to bear.

If that's what they're doing, I get why they don't want you to explain that sister is, in fact, your sister. But I don't think they should have expected you to know that. We're none of us mind readers, after all. If you get to talk with as, and if you think Iv hit on the true reason for this, perhaps you can tell him that you understand now and that you won't mention anything like that again? I know you didn't ask for advice, but I just can't help that you might be able to resume a relationship w/ gd if the parents see they can trust you to follow their t & c.

I don't get why they told gd you aren't "family" though. Why can't there be two gms from as' side - a gm and a sgm (stepgrandmother)? Lots of families have that situation. Or did they mean you're not "immediate family," as I think agnurse mentioned? They may have simply meant you're not part of the core family that includes just them and gd. If you get a chance, I would ask as what "not family" means just as a question, not a complaint.

I know some posters didn't find agnurse' distinguishing between immediate and extended family helpful. But if that's all as and dil meant, then perhaps it's not as bad as it sounded when gd said it. If they meant more than that, then I don't get it and I'm very sorry.

Don’t ask me...I’m glad for you. I really think what you are doing is the most mature positive reaction to a horrendously immature situation, and I applaud you wholeheartedly ?
I’m hanging in there but I know the end will come. I just haven’t the courage to bring it to a conclusion now
Good luck with your plans and keep us posted

Namsnanny its easy to say what, maybe, you should have done, but what you did by answering the phone and speaking to your ac is probably what all of us would do. Its as I said on a post a while ago, I'd jump through any hoops and do whatever I was "told" to do if only to see my GC.
Try and find something to do to take your mind off the waiting. I will never ever see my GC again, that's a fact that I'm coming to terms with, and to distract me I've thrown myself whole heartedly into planning a move and sounding out employment opportunities in other areas. Not suggesting you do this but now I've got a mission I'm feeling better

Chin up

Just like to send flowers ? to all today.
Feeling so lack lustre, up too late every night, missing my gc. Sick of being disregarded by ac.
I’m really dispondant about my reactions to ac.
Quick synopsis, walking on eggshells with ac been accused of favouritism over gc (others have noticed the parents actually favour one with cuddles etc the other left out!!...transferring their own guilt onto me???)
Of possibly kidnapping (how, I can’t walk some days without frame, Nws it would hurt gc and would never have occurred to me if it hadn’t been pointed out!!)
Plus too much to list.

But through all this my ac eventually phones and what do I do.....choke back the tears, say how lovely it is to speak to them and capitulate with their requirements to wait until they say I may see gc!!!!
I should have either not answered phone at all, told them where to shove it, told them I’m not playing their games anymore and ment it!!!!
Now I’m back being messed around with. Waiting like a nervous wreck for a date to see gc for it to be changed and changed again!!!
The stess is off the charts!
Sorry not so positive today, don’t let me get you down, follow Pythagoras lead and get out there and live!!!

Still haven't read through everything, so please forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else said. Also, sorry Aqua, if a lot of my comments seem to be directed towards you. NOT targeting you - it's just that I'm doing this in such a piecemeal way because I'm catching up.

I get that it seems like a lot of t & c when you get to visit with gd. Phew! If it's any help, some of them can all be pulled together under one heading - no contact unless initiated by parents. If you just don't do anything to contact gd/try to contact her/them, you've got that covered. I know it hurts just the same, of course (sigh).

I don't get the no singing or make-believe or dreams rules though they probably fall under one heading also. Do they belong to some religious group that doesn't allow these things? That's he only explanation I can think of. If you're a person who is very imaginative, however, or loves to tell stories, sing, etc., I can see where that would be very confining. I admit, I'd be torn between wanting to see my gc and not wanting to be controlled. But I'd probably pick seeing my gc.

Imo, the parents are very foolish to try to hide who your sister really is. Gd will find out/figure it out, eventually. The only good reason I can think of is they don't want gd to know what xh and sister did. Too much for a child to handle, they may think. Or, perhaps, they just don't want to have to explain why a great-aunt is called "Grandma," etc. I don't see where you meant any harm in telling gd who sister is, and I think their calling it "emotional abuse" was way over the top! But I hope you leave it alone in the future, not just because of t & c but because it could be confusing for poor gd.

I'm another one who doesn't understand parents being jealous of gps' or anyone's relationships with their kids, Namsnanny. Like you, I loved it when other people enjoyed my kids - took it as a high compliment. And I was delighted if my kids enjoyed them (that's probably where the jealousy comes in for some people though). Imo, there's no such thing as too much love! I had my issues with mil, but I knew she loved my kids (her gc, after all), and I was glad they had that love and had fun with her, too. I don't see how anyone could resent that.

Cherries, I'm sorry that dil has distanced you and dh and that you're facing your coming visit with worry. Just based on other things Iv read and heard, I imagine she and ds have decided that he will do all the communicating, etc., with you two now, and that, fortunately, the gc will be included. I imagine that during your visit, she'll absent herself a lot, have other things she "has to" do, and leave most of the visiting and entertaining to ds. Idky she's dropped out of the picture this way, but you can ask ds when you're there maybe. Whatever the reason, I'm sorry she feels this way. I know it must hurt. However, as long as you get to talk to and spend time with ds and the gc, I think you're ok. Please just enjoy that and never mind about dil.

hdh74 - So sorry about your son's behavior! Were there any issues between the two of you, big or small before he went nc? That may give you a clue as to the "why." Idk, but maybe. Or it may have to do with something going on in his own life that has nothing to do with you, but then, imo, all the more reason to tell you. I guess he doesn't see it that way or thinks you know the reason.

Oh, sorry, I looked through again and found the post where you said your sister had actually married your xh, Aqua. What an awful situation! So sorry! But if it's any kind of comfort, now I'm even more convinced that she's called "grandma" because she's "grandpa's wife" and that's all. As agnurse says, that in itself, doesn't lessen anything for you. The estrangement does though, I know, andm once again, I'm so deeply sorry about that.

Starlady

I agree. While I understand that Aqua is upset about what her ex did to her, I think it's important to recognize that these things happened years ago. A young child doesn't need to be told all of the family drama.

Growing up I had some honorary aunts and uncles. It did not take away from the role my biological aunts and uncles played. My kid knows my parents as Grandma and Grandpa, SFIL as Granddad, and her stepfather's parents as Nan-Nan and Pop-Pop. That doesn't change the fact that she still has a natural Nanny, Granddad, and Grandpa (Grandma died when DSD was 2 or 3).

IOWs, maybe it's more about your son being supportive of his dad/your x than it is about sister wanting to take things from you? I know that thought doesn't make it any easier not to see your gd.

Well, I'm up. Some nights this happens to me. Probably because I had a long, tiring day, and fell asleep early - so now I'm up, lol!

Aqua, I realize I'm a little confused. Is your sister still with your husband? Is he your x now? Because if he's with her, that may be why your son and dil decided/agreed to have the kids call her grandma. Sure she's their great aunt, but if she's grandpa's significant other or whatever, they may feel she's a gm, too. I know you don't like that and get that it hurts. But my point is, it might not be sister trying to take everything from you, it might just reflect your son's and dil's view of the role she should play, if that makes any sense.

Sleepless and catching up. Thinking of you all, while I hope you slumber. Anyone else have spells of not sleeping?

Count me in on a meet up IRL please!

My DH and I have been discussing all weekend that maybe we should move away, rather as Smileless has done. We don't see our estranged family where we live but the memories are here in this house. Can't move for a couple of years at least, but the idea of it is actually giving me something to look forward to and plan for, while also feeling sad.

Anyway, if a meet up is organised, do please let me know

Thankyou Chewbacca ?

OMG! No one here is "worthless," imo. Even if you (general) are fully responsible for an estrangement due to errors you made, you can't just write yourself off as totally without value. Usually, there are two sides to the story, anyway.

Bopeep, as I understand it, blocking someone on fb is part and parcel of going nc. I'm sorry about the estrangement - hugs! - but I'm surprised your son didn't block you on fb sooner. But - on Mothering Sunday? How cruel! He might not have intended to be cruel - he may have been meaning to block you and the day just reminded him. Or he might have started thinking about you and the issues between you, gotten mad, and just went ahead and blocked you without thinking beyond his own feelings. But, no matter what, imo, he should have at least waited till the day had past.. Not that I want you to be blocked at all, but if he was going to do it, not on Mothering Sunday, of all days.

Meanwhile, I hope many of you here had a beautiful M Sunday, and that most of you who are estranged at least found some peace. I know that wasn't the case for you, BoPeep, and perhaps not for you Aqua, and I am so deeply sorry.

Reading some more... Aqua, I am horrified by what happened with your sister and dh! Imo, that's the ultimate betrayal! And now she has taken over your place as gm to your own gd (are you sure of this? who told you?)! How deeply painful! I take it there has been drama between you and your sister for years, maybe dating back to when you were kids? But how did she influence your son and dil? I can barely get my mind around that! More hugs!

Sorry for so many posts, but I'm just commenting as I go along, catching up.

Great link, Cherries!

Pythagorus and Dolcelante, how beautiful that you could do for those needy young women. And how wonderful that they appreciate it! Sometimes, we get more appreciation from "strangers" than from our own. You are clearly both very generous and kind women. I'm sure your ac know this underneath it all but are responding to other issues, whatever they may be.