Support for all who are living with estrangement

Cherries, thank you for your kind words, they mean a lot at this very difficult time. Some time ago our daughter was very difficult with us, she made it difficult for us to see her or our grandchildren. It nearly broke my heart, and I sought refuge here on the estrangement thread. After our baby grandson was born she became even more ill with terrible Post Natal Depression, and another diagnosis that I will not disclose here. At the worst point in her illness our daughter reached out to us in her absolute despair, and my heart was broken again at seeing my beloved and beautiful girl in such a terrible state. But it has been a long and painful haul back to some degree of normality, which is tentative to say the least. At least she is back at work now which perhaps gives her sense of self. She is professional and you would not believe what she has been through to see her go the door on her way to work, all beautifully turned out and smartly attired. Nor would you think she could behave as she does, less so now, but still does. Anyway, I stopped posting on the estrangement thread as I was not estranged, but did post on the mental health thread. I turned back to this thread simply because things are difficult again and I wonder what’s going to happen now.

My heart goes out to you all on this thread, to be denied your own dear child and your grandchildren is a terrible situation to live with, it is heartbreaking. And it is my contention that much of it is caused by ongoing mental health issues.

agnurse, as you have actually contributed to the Mental Health thread, I would expect you to understand that my daughter had been seriously ill this past couple of years with mental health illnesses. We, her parents, have gone over and above with help and support because she is our daughter and we love her. We have done everything in our power to help her recover, and whilst we have been doing that we have frequently been abused (and it is abuse) berated and belittled. At least we have never been subjected to violence, unlike her husband, or indeed abandoned as she once did with her children. Please don’t lecture me on the correct way to cope with all of this as you really don’t have any idea of what any of us have been through these last years. I am perfectly aware that my daughter has every right to know when her child is when we take care of him, however she has never asked us not to go to her grandmother’s before, and actually said that she was not forbidding us to take him there then. We have responsibilities to both our children and their children, and also to my 91 year old mother. If we pop in to see my mother to check that she is okay and we have care of our baby grandson then so be it. We try hard to do it all, and ensure everyone is cared for.

There's a lot of not even listening to them when they've asked for space going on on this thread.

Cherries

That's likely to make them even more angry. It implies that you are the parent, that you're in charge, that you know best, that you don't see them as a peer, and that they're not adults.

If they've asked for no contact it's also incredibly disrespectful of their boundaries. It demonstrates that you didn't even listen to them in the first place when they asked for space.

maddyone

I have been reading your mental health thread on Ask a Gran and my heart goes out to you and other Grans who are facing these enormous difficulties.

Thank you for your validation. Yes, I also think that it's important for all of us who are living with estrangement to keep in mind the possibility that the people who are cutting us off may have mental health disorders and/or personality traits/disorders which are influencing how they see and feel about things and the decisions which they make.

Joyfulnanna - thank you also for your validation. My heart goes out to you too and to all you other Grans who are, like me, living with this issue.

I wonder if there is anything to be gained by sending letters to the people who are estranging us which express empathy e.g. "I suppose that you haven't taken this decision lightly/must have been struggling with our relationship for a while/must have felt that this was the best thing to do to ease or remove the pressure on you" and go on to ask gently if, nevertheless, this extreme course of action is really in their own best interests or in the best interests of their child or children. It would probably not be helpful to ask this person outright if (s)he ever has any little nagging doubts or twinges of conscience or moments of thinking with regret about having cut off her/his nose to spite his/her face but perhaps there may be an indirect form of communication which speaks to her/him on some level and invites a bit of reframing and healing.

Pythagorus and others - thank you for your heartening encouragement to never give up. One of Churchill's quotations comes to mind: "If you're going through hell, keep on going". Ok, ok, we will hardly fight them on the beaches etc. but we can use and be nourished by our collective wisdom, resourcefulness, powers of lateral thinking and precious and warm support for each other.

GG65

I can identify with you up to a point. I remember that challenging and sometimes highly stressful spinning-plates-while-juggling-and-walking-the-tightrope routine from the years when my children were young and I was a working Mum without good family support who, like many Mums, had to cope with some pretty big ongoing difficulties at times as well as several painful life events. It was important to conserve mental or emotional energy where I could, attend to my needs too and look after my mood so that I could function well and these aims were partly achieved by being careful about my interactions with certain family members. I never insisted on rigid boundaries nor resorted to serious control tactics and I was certainly not an appeaser or doormat but able to be assertive when I felt that was called for and appropriate to retain my self-respect. I remember cherishing contact with close friends, enjoying some "alone time" e.g. through exercise or walking and also writing fast and freely about my thoughts and feelings in notebooks which I think is now called "journalling". All these methods and more helped me to keep my stress levels under control by and large and sometimes they enabled me to see, when I was in a calmer and possibly more rational frame of mind, that a few of my interpretations might be a bit distorted and in need of some tweaking. For example, perhaps because of a tricky childhood, I was sensitive to detecting particular patterns in relationships and therefore inclined to view relationships more through the lens of my past than the present day.

Perhaps I was fortunate not to have anyone in my life who showed me absolutely no love, respect or empathy. For example, there were no psychopaths or malignant narcissists as far as I know and recall.

It mattered to me to try to maintain ties with members of my immediate and extended family and to look for and try to identify a few positive aspects of even disappointing or challenging relationships because I had been raised to value family connections and because I didn't want my misgivings, hurt feelings and grievances - which no doubt occur from time to time in all families - to dominate, unduly influence or spoil things for my husband and children. If my antennae picked up the possibility of talking things through constructively and in an emotionally satisfying way when conflict arose, I would try to do just that. I'm sure that I didn't do all or most of the things which I suggest in the paragraph that you refer to at any one time with any particular individual but, in relation to this collection of family members over the course of my children's youth, I did periodically and consciously work on these connections. If this effort wasn't well reciprocated, as far as I could tell, I went "reduced contact" or "semi-detached contact" for varying periods of time but never went down the drastic NC route.

I hope that this is helpful.

Maddyone

In all fairness, she does have a right to know where her child is. If she has asked that you not take her daughter out when she's with you, you need to honour that.

I do agree that her approach wasn't the best.

Is she expecting that you will do childcare over Easter? Are you expecting that you'll do childcare?

Thank you Joy for your kindness. Re the mental health issues, I started a thread entitled Mental Health sometime ago, I occasionally still contribute to it. There are so, so many grandparents out there who have contributed to that thread, take a look if you wish.

Oh Maddyone, I do understand. Your situation resonates so closely with mine. Daughter mental health problems. When you mentioned the meltdown episode, this is the action of someone still very unstable. You are doing your best and there is no reason for her to react like that, it's not normal. Walking on eggshells again is not the way you want to live your life. I do worry about her mental state.

I may well have spoken too soon. This morning my husband has had a most unpleasant conversation on the phone with our daughter. She made it clear she was not willing to discuss our childcare arrangements for the Easter holiday although we have given much of our time over to her children in providing care every other school holiday. We have also provided care for her dog when they’ve been on holiday.
My daughter ‘had a go’ at me a couple of weeks ago, because whilst we were looking after her baby (18 months old) we had called in to see my elderly mother, who is 91 years old. We stayed half an hour. When she knew where we had been, our daughter went into one of meltdowns and shouted at me and verbally bullied me. She very much likes to be in control and I suppose she must have felt out of control because we chose to visit my mother, her grandmother. I am fairly used to being treated like this but for some reason I was particularly upset because she had appeared to be improving and I felt we were back to square one. I didn’t try to defend myself because I dislike conflict so much, but the following day I did message her tell her how upset I was, and that I need these verbal attacks need to stop. Her response hasn’t been favourable. Perhaps she will cut us off again.
Thank you for listening.

Hello fellow posters,

I feel I have to post my present reflections ..... it may help someone.

The present Brexit situation illustrates what happens when two parties become entrenched in their thinking and beliefs. The longer it goes on the worse it gets. It take a real shift in behaviour to effect a change which may move towards an end to the deadlock. I believe that process has started with Brexit and that we will get it sorted.

It seems to be the same with these estrangement. A real shift is necessary ....... who makes the shift is clearly going to be the person who is the most able to rise above the situation and work out the way forward. It may involve some lateral thinking. But I believe that through love, great changes can be made. Never give up.

I was urged to write this because a dear friend who has weeks to live refuses to tell her adult children she is ill and is dying. She has forbidden her friends to tell them.
They have been estranged for several months. My friend is black and white ...... and if they don’t behave as she thinks they should they are out ...... so there it is. Some small hurt has resulted in this. She loves them, they love her, but this ridiculous situation means that she will die without making peace, saying goodbye .... to the people she loves most. And they will be left hurting for the rest of their lives. As a mother I feel this is an absolute tragedy.

I was estranged from my son for a while, but I eventually swallowed my resentment ..... which was the size of a bull elephant ....... and came forward to heal the rift. The loving response was enormous.

I know all situations are very different ....... but if we could all think about the smallest shift we could make ...... we are the grown ups, we have the wisdom .... so my message today is ...... it is worth a shot. X

GG65.. All that matters is that we care, I think we're in agreement on that. I am very sorry for the pain caused to you by that woman. I hope you can move on from that. You're right, we must not allow ourselves to feel bad by the actions of others adults. I know I have to repeat that to myself too.

Joyfulnanna, I certainly wasn’t digging at anyone’s open wounds. I always read this thread, but never post, because it seeems almost impossible to say anything without being accused of insensitivity. I posted on this occasion as I felt that Cherries thoughts on dealing with a ‘bumpy’ relationship seemed somewhat romanticised and certainly not worth anyone’s effort when dealing with a difficult individual as there can never be any reciprocation.

I absolutely empathise with your situation. It is all the more distressing as there is nothing you can do about it. Unfortunately, she is the mother and she can and will do as she pleases. She is obviously a difficult individual. I don’t think it’s about her not having the guts to attend to a complicated misunderstanding. More than likely she just doesn’t care. You can’t maintaining relationships with people like this and maintain your sanity and happiness simultaneously. And in these situations grandparents will always lose. You’re correct, it is appalling.

Just to be clear, I judge no one on this thread as I have been the target of a hateful, vengeful woman who, when it came down to it, just didn’t care. Didn’t care one bit about the damage her actions caused. What can one do against such reckless behaviour?

I agree.. Cherries is so eloquent in the dissection of issues in family relationships. I don't think it reads like the kind of advice you give to divorcing parents, or advice at all. All relationships are formed of transactions. The more we can understand the intricacies and details of how things play out, the better we can come to terms with all our differences. I only see GP on here who are intelligent, insightful and loving. But they are going through intense loss and its very hard to bear, at the best of times so please offer a bit of empathy, we don't need people digging at our open wounds. I have to grieve the loss of my GS every day because of complicated misunderstandings that the other party doesn't have the guts to attend to because of selfish pride. She knows her son misses me and chooses to ignore it to keep the hate going against me. She's hurting him, it's ducking abuse and just because she's his mother, she thinks she knows what's best for him. Its appalling.

Cherries, I rarely come on here, I’m not estranged, but due to my daughter suffering some mental health issues some two years ago, our relationship was difficult and I sought support on this thread then. She eventually suffered a complete break down from which she is mostly recovered, and we were required to support with a huge amount of childcare. Anyway, that’s just background, what I want to say is how sound your list is re immature or insecure adult children. Add mental health issues into the mix and you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Cherries, there is working at relationships and then there is the second paragraph of your last post! It sounds like the kind of advice you would give to divorcing parents!

It takes a great deal of effort raising children, maintaining a good relationship with one’s spouse, one’s friends, working, keeping a home and finding time for oneself. Who has the time or energy to put THAT much effort into a relationship with people who are not their spouse or children!

Most people just want a peaceful life and unfortunately those ‘bumpy’ relationships can turn into no relationships if the stress is just too much to deal with. If there is no mutual respect then, as sad as it is, the grandparents will miss out. Whether that be as a result of a difficult daughter in law/daughter, mother in law/mother or son or father. I feel for all the grandmothers out there who have to deal with difficult daughter in laws (my sister being one!) and who miss out on their grandchildren as a result. And I feel for all the daughter in laws who have to deal with difficult mother in laws (mines was most definitely not well meaning). I absolutely understand how estragement happens and it is usually because one person involved in the dynamic is just far too difficult to deal with and no amount of appeasing or understanding will do.

I agree, agnurse, but sadly you are missing a few points again, unfortunately. Where do I say or imply that AC or sons/daughters-in-law must do anything? Where do you see the language of coercion or compulsion in my posts? Sorry, but this just isn't rational. Could Chewbacca be correct? Are you also perhaps working in a field where you regularly come across grandparents who could reasonably be regarded as overly controlling/grossly inappropriate/abusive and are therefore, for several reasons, very prone to tarring all GPs with the same brush? If that is the case, I hope that you will seriously consider discussing these projecting and overgeneralising tendencies, blindspots and inappropriate use of this thread with your supervisor.

With a bumpy relationship between a GP and an AC or son/daughter-in-law in mind, I am favouring here such things as a two-way or reciprocal openness to listening to and learning from each other, admitting mistakes and the possibility of misunderstandings, using humour to defuse tension, recognising and moving away from rigid or black-and-white thinking, being reluctant to accuse the other person of being solely at fault, reluctance to jump to negative conclusions, cultivating patience, being willing to apologise, continuing to try to talk respectfully with each other, empathising with and validating each other where possible, connecting emotionally with each other, valuing each other and, as Joyfulnanna emphasises, remembering to keep the children's needs and wellbeing at the forefront of the bigger picture.

My guess is that most of the grans who read and post here would say that they tried to work at having pretty good relationships through various means but despite this they were cut off with little to no prior discussion or warning and little to no consideration of their perspectives and feelings, those of other family members and those of their GC.

Here ends my attemps to engage you in the conversation. I wish you well.

Cherries

AC are adults. They are not required to accept any input or feedback on their parenting from a GP.

Cherries you are spot on, I echo all the examples you have covered. There is little understanding of the bigger picture, the CHILDREN.

Take no notice Cherries; agnurse has a tendency to project her own difficulties, regarding her own family estrangement, onto other posters. They're not the same as the majority of us on this thread but they're obviously just as difficult to come to terms with ours.

A little flexibility rather than insistence on rigid rules can often be a good thing too when the situation isn't life-or-death.

It may be the case that some gps are deeply into control/power games but I think that it would not be wise or fair to rush into making that assumption, just as it isn't wise or fair to assume this about an AC.

agnurse, where exactly am I saying that everyone must act as I did? I wonder how you have arrived at this meaning.

A parent may rightly need to set clear boundaries with a gp if the gp seems consistently and deliberately intent on ignoring the parent's clearly expressed wishes. I imagine that this situation is relatively uncommon, though, and that what could be happening much more often is that the parent - for whatever reason - is reluctant to have a friendly and "chilled" or low-key conversation with the gp.

Few gps are likely to appreciate being "told" what to do. It is the same for parents who understandably bristle at being told what to do by authoritarian gps. Who appreciates being spoken to in that way? Where is the respect for the other person's dignity?

There are times as a parent when one may need to be confontational with a gp as a last resort or find oneself unfortunately erupting angrily rather than being assertive but I put it to you that generally it's better if possible to try to keep working on the relationship and to draw on the quality or, to use an old-fashioned word, virtue of forbearance. A parent in this position could say, for example, "Mum/m-i-l, when you do b or c, I feel x or y. I really appreciate you as a granny to Montmorency (expressing gratitude may help to feed goodwill and a positive mood in both adults) but find that when you do this particular thing - b or c -, it's very frustrating/annoying. Can we chat about this please?"

Some insecure/immature parents may be inclined to do some of the following:

only blame the gp and accept no personal responsibility for friction in the relationship because of the fear of being subordinate to the gp or of feeling deficient or like a "loser" in a power struggle

not want to receive input, support or feedback from the gp

express contempt for the gp

resist soul-searching

avoid conversations with the gp or end them very quickly

try to stay in control and act superior at all costs

make excuses for themselves but make no or few allowances for the gp

imply that they and only they are the "keepers of reality"

believe that they know what the gp thinks and are wholly justified in stating that

believe that their opinions are statements of fact or truth

feel entitled to be forthright in a harsh and mean-spirited way, showing that they care nothing or little for the gp's feelings, because they have a low level of empathy

play the victim role

demand that the gp accepts their rudeness or other bad behaviour unconditionally

Other posters may want to add other things that have got under their skin.

How often does it happen that gps have initiated the cutting off of contact with difficult AC, sorely tempted though they must feel at times after upsetting experiences of going nowhere in attempted conversations? And why is that?

Cherries

If a GP is overstepping boundaries, has been told continually not to do so, and continues to do it anyway, I have to question whether it is a case of "means well" or is actually a control mechanism.

Just because you were willing to put up with inappropriate behaviour does not mean that everyone must be prepared to put up with it.

thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-18/edition-11/grandparents-and-grandchildren

Just found this on the internet. Lots to mull over.