Spiteful mothers

Sweetpea60 I am hopeful things will settle down over time.
Everyone is hurting and lashing out at the moment. You wisely came here rather than storming at your dil in person. Keep calm, don't be tempted to blame and most of all, if you're allowed, be a safe haven for your grandchild.

Having worked in the court system, I know it is by no means just Mums who do this, Dads can be equally vicious.

crazyH I'm so sorry to hear about your unhappiness over your friend. It's terrible when we lose someone we love.

I am so sorry to hear of all these horrid separations.
There can be a positive side.
Following an acrimonious divorce joint custody was granted; once things were settled both parents found new partners and things calmed down. Grandparents and families on both sides had full access to the children as before, and the families of both new partners became enthusiastic honorary grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. At present at least, they form a relatively united extended family, which benefits the children greatly.

Sweetpea is there any way you can bridge the divide by acknowledging that you are both a mother and grandmother in this situation and that you will leave your son and his estranged wife to sort out their issues but wish to continue as a loving and involved grandmother? ?

No doubt you would class me as a spiteful mother too OP, as when I found out about my husband cheating on me, it was made very clear to me that my mother in law didn't care about his despicable behaviour, she was only concerned with how he was feeling, and his reputation. When I told ppl what he had done, I got a mouthful of abuse from her. I didn't see why I should have gone out of my way to facilitate my children spending time with someone of such pathetic morals. To this day I have never had any apology, nor, as far as I am aware, has she ever condemned his behaviour in any way. That's not being spiteful, it's looking out for my children.

Sorry, I didn't check - I wrote to his parents saying that I would be happy for them to see the children and that I would take them to see their grandparents at their convenience

I agree that some women are manipulative and just plain nasty, but please do not throw all mothers into the same sack. I was abused for years, finally plucked up the courage to leave him, and did. I fought tooth and nail for him to get treatment for his raging alcoholism, as I wanted him to have a good relationship with his children. I could not let him have access while he was drinking as he could not be trusted to take care of them, I tried at the beginning of the breakup and had to go to collect them (he really did some terrible things, forgetting to feed them supper on one occasion. That was the last straw, I went to collect them immediately) And he did eventually get treatment and have a relationship with them. I was happy to enable them spending time supervised by other members of his family, but not alone, for the reasons mentioned above. I wrote to his parents to say they could see him, but they chose not to, as they refused to accept he had a problem (until he moved in with them and they saw it first hand) It was a nightmare and through it all I fought hard to make sure he could see them. Please OP don't decide that all mothers in a break up use the children as weapons. It isn't true, it isn't kind, and there are nasty fathers out there who aren't saints.

My brother in laws ex did this. Her behaviour deprived us all, ( Grannies, Aunts, Uncles and cousins ) of their daughters company. Of course there are two sides to every story and I personally remained in touch ( letters, cards and birthday and Christmas presents) with my ex sister in law, but the relationship with my niece is shot. As we saw so little of her.
I am not saying my Brother in Law was an angel but he just ran out of money to keep going to court to try and keep contact with his daughter. His ex ( a doctor) had the money and intellect to run rings round him.

ican yes, in such cases there seems no alternative to the courts but it can be difficult to prove things unless they are in writing.

It is good if the courts are recognising that some women are manipulative and lying but I can imagine scenarios where that is difficult to prove. It would be good if Social Services would do the same but I know of a case where they believed the mother despite the evidence of two doctors. Wrong but true

My friend ( unbeknownst to any of her family and friends) suffered years of abuse from her husband. She never once decried him to their children, and always made sure they had plenty of contact with him and his family. They are now adults with families of their own, and have a good relationship with him ( especially since he gave up the booze), and when he became ill she was ready to nurse him, as, ‘she had made vows before God’. To this day she has never told them what she went through ( though I’m sure others may have)
I’m sure I could never be so considerate, but would hope I wouldn’t have poisoned their minds.

Nonnie, I think you also have to take into account the nature of the person you are up against. Most people who had an ex who was reasonable should certainly try anything they can to avoid court. However, others (like our son) suffered with an "I'm the mother so what I say goes and there's nothing you can do about it," find that it is better to nip it in the bud very quickly. Courts much prefer to leave "reasonable access" to parents to sort out on the whole but after one session with my ex-DIL, even her own solicitor agreed that "Defined Access," was the way forward. She has gone on to have another 3 children since (all with different fathers) and my son has allowed her to deviate from the arrangements to let her keep their son for Christmas so he got to be with his new sibling. Last year, after a still birth the year before, my son asked if they could vary the arrangement for the their new baby's first Christmas. Not a hope in hell. It's a funny old world!

Nonnie You are quite right! The word "some" is especially important in this sort of thread isn't it as in "some mothers; "some fathers" "some women"; "some men"! Any generalisation using "all" instead is inaccurate and unfair! I too could give examples to prove/disprove those "all" statements! I suppose, when someone is hurting and upset they may well slip into that type of generalisation - it is perhaps human even if not accurate or fair.

"Give the dust a little more time to settle - the open wound of divorce/seperation is all too fresh " This is good advice from LLL and similar has been said by others too.

Good luck OP!

Nonnie sadly you are so right.

Not all men are wonderful fathers ,I knew one who walked away from his two children when his second wife got pregnant.He told his 9 year old daughter over the phone that he wouldn't be seeing them again as he had a new baby on the way!!!That was over 20 years ago ,and he didn't ever see them again,and now he's dead .How are children supposed to cope with a rat like that?

ican I do hope you are right. I do think though that a man dealing with such a woman needs to provide evidence that he has done everything possible before going to court. Once the legal system starts up it is hard for some people to back down and they become even more confrontational.

Live my comments were not directed only at the OP, rather more for those who appeared to attack her and seemed not to understand that such women exist. I felt a need to show some of the things I know have happened and to stick up for some men who have been abused and denied access to their children.

Imagine a scenario where a woman has complained several times to the police but there has never been any proof that the man has done something wrong. His name is blackened before he goes to court so he is up against that and the bias towards the mother as well. I know a man this happened to who was assaulted by his wife, with evidence of the assault, but he wouldn't complain because he didn't want her to be taken from the children.

Not all woman are nice and honest, some are spiteful and manipulative and some men are nice and honest, not all are monsters.

Nonnie

1. "To expect a man to use the courts before he has tried every possible means to get contact with his children in naive."

But the OP mentioned nothing about her sons either trying to gain contact or exhausting every possible means out there. What's "naive," in my opinion is a grandparent who holds onto the expectation that an ex-DIL (who according to them has just broken up with their partner of 9 years) will go out of her way and facilitate traditional holiday plans as usual. As if nothing very drastic has just occured in both hers and her childs life. Divorce can be extremely hard, stressful and devastating for anyone. OP should given both ex-DIL, her son and her grandchild some time to adjust to their new family dynamics, before branding her ex-DIL as a potentially spiteful woman with the potential to brainwash her own child - solely for she expected her holiday tradition to continue as usual - in spite of the obvious shock and grief that this seperated family may currently be facing.

2. "Can you imagine how difficult such a woman could be if there was a court order? "

The judges have seen and heard it all. Nowadays women loose custody of their children when they continuously violate court ordered custody agreements. Ofcourse there are few exceptions to this rule. Secondly, this argument can't be used as a justifiable means of not going to court and doing things the legal way. She has 3 grandchildren whom she unfortunately doesn't get see. And from her story at least two different ex-DILs. Her sons at some point will have to take some legal responsibility if they want to visit their children, as opposed to relying to the "spiteful woman," narrative. If her sons won't do it, then she should remain neutral and try to form an amicable relationship with ex-DIL. One that would allow her to see her grandchildren occasionally. Before trying to do this, don't let your anger/emotions lead you to stereotype your ex-DIL this way.

And yes women can be extremely spiteful - no one is denying that. But so can men so this cant be used as a justifable lable. Bottom line is if this breakup has just occurred, then OP should step back for a while, refrain from taking any sides in this seperation, withold any anger/emotions and simply give this whole seperation and visitation schedule some time to settle. It maynnot have occured to her that ex-DIL may be grieving, depressed or maybe chosen to rely on her own support system for some healing - before exposing herself to a family that she was once a part of. Maybe her own son is equally depresed and grieving and could'nt care (at least for now) about his mothers visitation schedule/holiday traditions with his children until he too experiences some form of inner healing. Not sure why it has to come down to the grandparents asking " what have we done to deserve this," when its very clear that they are dealing with a family unit that's probably in complete chaos (emotionally at least) right now. You should be a source of support if you can as opposed to getting upset with ex-DIL and stereotyping her. Sorry but maybe with all thatrs going on right now you as grandparents have just been put in the back burner until they can clear their minds. It may also be extremely hard for anyone of them, including your grandchild to be in any celebatory mood with all that's going on.

In the event that ex-DIL becomes difficult, then then the only other option to her seeing the grandchild would be through her son - and only after he goes to court, or if either one of you works out something amicable with his ex-ewife/DIL.

Give the dust a little more time to settle - the open wound of divorce/seperation is all too fresh to make any stereotyped assumptions (especially if you got along great with ex-DIL as you say). I wish you the very best.

There are a lot of immature parents these days.. but then I guess there have always been women that do that when something displeases them.. they don't think about how this might impact on the children or grandparents it's all about them (me) We are in the same boat but with one of my grandchildren...

Nonnie, the courts are well aware of women who try to thwart their orders and these days, they are quicker to deal with women who do. I know of women who have been threatened with losing Residency if they don't comply and one woman who lost her kid.

Nonnie

I can see your point. The reason I suggest going to a solicitor and getting a court order is simply that this way there's a paper trail and there is recourse if the mum refuses to let him see the children. I agree with you that a simple discussion should be the first course of action. Unfortunately, if the other party refuses, that's not going to be possible.

I've only read the first page so will only comment on that. Some well meaning comments but clearly a lack of understanding about how much some women use their children as a form of control.

To expect a man to use the courts before he has tried every possible means to get contact with his children in naive. Can you imagine how difficult such a woman could be if there was a court order? All the 'reasons' she would find to deny access and make his life hell. Let me give you some examples of things that I know have happened to people I know:

1 A policeman told of his brother who committed suicide because his wife wouldn't let him see his children.
2 A woman who took her children out at the time her ex had a court order to see his children and wouldn't answer her phone. It took 2 policemen a long time to get her to give him the children.
3 A woman who lied to the police and social workers about her husband's violence and when the SW realised she complained about her and got her removed from the case.
4 A man who had a clear case against his wife but refused to make a complaint because her behaviour was so serious she might have been given a custodial sentence and he didn't want that for his children.
5 A man who was paying far too much in maintenance because she demanded it and got into debt before he was advised to look on the CSA website to work out how much he should pay. Then he kept getting letters from the CSA saying that a 'third party' had advised that he was earning a lot more than he actually was.

I could go on but I think that is enough.

Women can be 'spiteful' when they don't get their own way and some are extremely manipulative.

It's a personality disorder used to control and manipulate while, sadly, using the children as the tool and traumatizing them in the process. Your son has rights and probably good to remove this person from your family, healing as you move forward keeping your relationship strictly with the children and the opinions of the mother's actions to yourself. Just because you can have a child doesn't make you a good parent.

It always irks me when people respond to such posts as “always two sides to a story” blah blah. Not always. There are some very nasty, evil minded people who have no regard for anyone but themselves. I have something very like but not the same situation recently. At a funeral last week someone dear to me was totally snubbed by the deceased’s mother and family and not mentioned in the service despite being the deceased’s partner and parent to their three children. This person has done nothing wrong apart from having a partner with a possessive, jealous mother. I know it’s a different situation but there isn’t always two sides. Some people are just awful, period.

Why would you deprive loving grandparents of seeing their adored grandchildren. That is what most grandparents would say, but it does not mean that they are what they say, only that is what they are in their opinion.

I can think of lots of nice and nasty reasons for someone choosing to do this.

Why would you deprive loving grandparents of seeing their adored grandchildren. I really don't know, God forbid if something happens to my sons' marriages, whether I would see my adorable grandchildren, especially in one case. I was talking to someone and they said you shouldn't love anyone too much....the more you live, the more you hurt

It's 10 years this Christmas that my ex DIL stopped my DS seeing the children. They were aged 4 and 7. He is happily remarried with two little boys but never hears or sees his adored eldest children. He fought through the course 4 times. Granted contact but she never complied. Lied to the kiddies saying that he was going to kidnap them. She is evil as is her mother who backs her in this cruel deception. We and they have lost so much. The girl is 18 now...old enough to contact her dad but she has been brainwashed. He did spot them in a local supermarket a while ago. The mother (I use the word lightly) wrote to him saying that 'The children were shocked and frightened seeing him there'. It beggers belief how she is abusing these young people by not allowing contact. I miss them and am not sure how I would be if I ever saw them again. These mothers do not realise the damage they cause their children with this Parental Alienation.

Sadly children are often used as pawns by both parents - not just mothers. It takes maturity on the part of all the adults to steer a satisfactory path for the children - who have the right to access both parents and their extended family - grandparents, aunts, uncles etc. I remember being annoyed with my parents when they maintained contact with my ex until my mother pointed that if anything happened to me they would loose their grandchildren if contact had been lost. It took maturity on all sides