Son, grandson, DinL

Not misunderstood. Not agreed with you. She needs to step back and try to establish a life for herself not dependant on what her children may or may not do. We grandparents need to let our children grow up and be the next generation. We can not control the future.

Loislovesstewie. I'm sure you are right actually - re covert recording. I have seen somewhere how it was used to shame a liar into forcing them to face the truth. I'll try and find where I saw it. Thanks.
Supernan I could hug you! You could not say a truer word: "*Narcissist may be the new buzzword, but if you have ever had the misfortune to come across one you know when it's the real deal*." Thank you.
MawBroonsback. Thanks Maw - I think he is the one. Did he take his girlfriend on holiday abroad (USA?) after violently killing his parents? Is this the case where the Psychologist was a young girl who was quite sure that he couldn't help himself due to his disorder? I will stick my neck out and say I completely disagree with her.
A Narcissist can be very intelligent, so very persuasive, so good at playing the victim, such a good liar, that they have fooled even some very experienced Psychiatrists. They can be exciting, appealing, charming, beguiling, dashing, and have the ability to make people fall under their spell. I have seen it happening and watched the poor victims fall for it. A narcissist is always in control. That is their aim. They have to be the one manipulating all others and in particular the one they take as victim. In therapy or when being assessed they will put everything into manipulating the assessor so powerfully in such cleverly skilful ways that it is inadvisable for these people to be assessed by one person on their own. To confound things further, there are three different types of Narcissist, so they are not always recognised.
I still maintain that NPD is not a plea that reduces culpability. It is not one of the Mental Illnesses in which a person has an altered state of reality and cannot perceive right from wrong. Neither is it a mental illness in which a person loses control over their behaviour and is unable to stop themselves doing wrong. I think the idea that you get yourself diagnosed with this kind of Personality Disorder and then are off the hook from the punishment for your crime is quite new. I only hope that his sentence was in perpetuity and that he will be incarcerated in a prison for people with mental disorders for the rest of his life, since it is, as yet, and irreversible disorder.
Bilboben. I think you have completely missed the point. Totally misunderstood what the OP said, and have no idea what an awful situation this is for her, to see her son at the hands of such a difficult person. Among other things have you not noticed that she says "Sometimes you just need to offload, but there's not always a listening ear to share with."

Narcissist may be the new buzzword, but if you have ever had the misfortune to come across one you know when it's the real deal. Sit tight, support your son. Make sure he gets a sympathetic solicitor. You will come across people who don't believe you or him. Forget Facebook and all the other social media, it will only wind you up. Good luck.

You seem to be loving all this drama. Start enjoying your own life and leave them to theirs. They are not children stop interfering and start exploring the world outside the confines of your own family.

Pat1949. i am so very sorry for your daughter. You too. You have seen such behaviour at its extreme end. Indeed the threats constitute what used to be Psychopathy.

Narcissism does not have to be violent and does not even need to be diagnosed. It can be used to describe behaviour. It can help someone in a terrible relationship who is unable to find a way out or understand what is going on to simply look up the three major descriptions or types of Narcissism and often things drop into place as they realise that what they are enduring is abuse.
If we are not scared of using some terminology it can open the door for many people to understand that they are being abused. Many controlling, coercive, manipulative, threatening people, people who like to isolate their partner, put them down, ridicule them in public etc, are not recognised as being abusive by the suffering partner until someone says "look up narcissist" and they see these behaviours described.
It is not using it as a diagnosis, it is merely giving it as terminology that covers a range of behaviours which are terrible and lead to the person on the receiving end becoming depressed, distressed, almost tortured. It helps the victim to learn how to cope, to learn their rights, how to survive, and the best way to deal with such a person.

If we are scared to use the term 'Narcissism' we will not be able to guide someone to look up a field which might give them the kind of help they so desperately need. Few people learn this term from the Psychiatrist's Clinic, but come across it in a deep conversation with a friend or when looking up help online. If it does not match the kind of situation they are in, people will just leave it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Blackwell

If anybody is interested in the facts of the case.

Narcissist is the new buzzword......

I wonder if you are referring to the Brian Blackwell case,
Tillybelle.
The young man did indeed change his plea to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility, but was not found not guilty of murder. The double-murder charge was dropped after he pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility after experts diagnosed him with narcissistic personality disorder.[4] Blackwell was sentenced to life imprisonment on 29 June 2005.

I think you might find that covert recording might not be admissible evidence. There is some case law on this; it might be deemed to be intimidation. It is up to the court to decide whether such is admissible but it could well backfire.
I also wish that people could try to not take sides so readily. We have no idea why the DiL does not contact her own family, why the OP didn't take to the DiL , the allegation that the DiL is a narcissist is bandied around with no diagnosis from a suitably qualified professional. We know next to nothing about the marriage ,but there are often two sides to any story. Can no-one think of reasons why the DiL might not talk to family? Does no-one decide that they have had enough of another family member? Was there ever a conversation about the son thinking that his wife should go back to work? Was there agreement on that? There are too many assumptions being made.Looking at a relationship from the outside rarely gives us the true picture.
Please note that I am not suggesting that emotional abuse and physical abuse only happens one way. I am fully aware that women can be abusive.
OP, Of course you should support your son , sometimes.it's best to listen and let him vent. As others have said you need to do the best for your grandchild and that also involved being respectful to the mother.

Was that in this country, TillyBelle, ie the UK?

I can't imagine someone being found NG of murder because they were diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder, unless the charge/conviction was Manslaughter due to diminished responsibility. That would still lead to a lengthy prison sentence, long enough so the person would have to be approved for parole and then on life licence.

jenpax. and everyone, We often get into the muddle of not knowing which words to use and become hesitant to use the words "Narcissism and narcissistic" in case people think we are making a diagnosis.
Actually it is not a diagnosis to say that a person acts in a narcissistic way any more than saying a person acts in a selfish way constitutes a diagnosis. If a person shows a lot of the behaviours that people who are described as narcissistic have, we are not diagnosing them, just saying they have a lot of those behaviours! So it can hold up discussion and worse, it can prevent people from finding appropriate help, if we get too scared to use a word that is also in the list of Mental Disorders, but is also a word in daily use. "Narcissistic" was used before the Doctors adopted it in fact and is descriptive of behaviour.

On the other side of the coin, there was a case of a young man who, I think, killed his parents and was found not guilty due to having a mental disorder which was Narcissistic Personality Disorder! I watched the program on TV not long ago. It bothered me a lot. The reason being that having this diagnosis does not mean that a person cannot tell right from wrong or is unable to decide between reality and unreality. The diagnosis in no way stops a person from knowing they are deliberately lying or hurting another person for example.

Nanapples. I am so sorry about what you and your son are going through.

I do understand when you say you need to "offload" and I hope people here will let you do that.

You have obviously spent a lot of time researching what makes this girl behave as she does, her cutting herself off from her own family is a big pointer regarding her difficult character.
Your son clearly needs a good Solicitor, and to make sure has gathers everything he needs as evidence in readiness for the divorce. Even covert filming is a good idea because, as you know, she will deny any bad behaviour he reports he doing. It would be obviously best for him to have custody of their son but be prepared, Courts usually give primary custody to the mother and the home to the mother. It is so hard for him but until he is free of her he cannot be in charge of his life.
You can do a lot simply by standing behind him, being his rock, giving him the odd good meal, listening to him when he needs to "sound off". It will probably be a difficult time ahead but they will eventually be divorced. He will always have to negotiate with her regarding their son, but once he is 16, things may get easier.
Keep your strength up. Better times are ahead. Think of the next few months as a "job" that needs to be done. Be prepared for all the unfair tactics she will try. You are obviously learning about her behaviour and have identified it clearly, which means you know where to start for gaining more information and help. Learn as much as you can. Use it to keep yourself going. You are not alone. There are loads of YouTube videos about how to deal with this sort of person including how to divorce them. You will find the ones that match your own needs. There are FaceBook pages where victims of these people meet and give each other help and encouragement too.
People who have not had to deal with it may not understand or be sympathetic. For example, I still find it upsetting, now on behalf of others not myself, when people say, "there are always two sides..." With this kind of person there is only one side - according to the narcissistic person that is theirs! They pick on the kindest most empathic and helpful people. They actually seek out these people discarding anyone who isn't extremely kind and unselfish. Then they prey on them to the utmost, taking over their whole life, cutting them off from friends and family, living like a parasite feeding off them. People do not know they are like this because they are excellent actors and put on a "public face" and also play the victim extremely well. If this does not match the behaviour of woman who is causing the trouble, then ignore me. If any of it helps, then please use it.
You will need a lot of strength and be ready to hear she is telling lies about your son and you. They lie all the time as you know.
I have seen a lot of this and am sending you every good wish and prayer I possibly can. I am so glad your son has you and that you can see what he is dealing with. Just be there for him. It's what we mums/grans are for! God bless you, your son and grandson!

I have had first hand experience of a narcissist and it was diagnosed as a spectrum disorder, which means you can have a low level of narcissistic traits, or a high level, and anything in between. We partly hear more about it because people are more aware of personality disorders, which would have gone unrecognised before. Also I think people didnt necessarily spend that much time in tight family units in the past where narcissism thrives behind closed doors. Maybe also the current 'me, me, me' society leads to more pronounced narcissism. I think its both more common and more recognised now, so we hear more about it.

The narc I knew had zero empathy and was completely unable to put themselves into the position of the other person. They simply didnt care if their significant other was unhappy, because it was all about them getting their own way. They also loved power over other people. You could fight back and live your life on a roller coaster with one row after another, or you could give in and then they despised you as weak and treated you accordingly. Some small comfort to me was that someone told me narcs are very much drawn to the nicest people in the world, because they are easier to control and are less likely to walk away. Perhaps your DS is one of the nice people of the world Nanapples?

I agree with others who advise treading very carefully here, the child is top priority and whatever you think of DIL she is his mum.
I am not clear about the clutching at straws comment? As others have pointed out the marriage is fairly long and at the least DIL will be entitled to child support and a roof over their heads, anything less would be detrimental to your GS.
I would also be very wary of diagnosing mental health problems! This is not really a job for the lay person, and I agree with previous posters who state that there is too much of this these days. It could well be that your DIL does have a mental health issue but it isn’t especially helpful to label her with one in the current situation as you attempt to negotiate future contact

Your son must be grateful for such a supportive Mum. And it’s good that you can vent on here.
I agree withPP, help him to get a lawyer, ensure all communications are recorded (ie email, letters). Continue to be supportive but step back and allow them to sort it between them. If you make judgments or express opinions they could come back to bite you, especially with regard to DIL allowing access to GC.
It’s a stressful time, so take care of yourself too. Hope it all works out x

Ooh just been through all this still reeling both son and two grandchildren , there is a very rough ride ahead sleepless nights etc . It's the sheer selfishness and lies around the children the dishonesty that's so hard . She will take him for everything unless he's very clever ,narcissistic behaviour is cold and calculating , There are always two sides but when you witness this behaviour close up its almost unbelievable as was said earlier if she is narcissistic buckle up

Oh dear ...... how sad it is when a relationship goes so wrong. It affects so many people, not just the warring spouses.
Of course every parent champions their own adult child and the other person is the baddie. But basically relationships fail when two people stop meeting each other’s needs. The thing is to catch things before they escalate and go beyond saving - by communicating openly and honestly on an ongoing basis. But sometimes a relationship can’t be saved and the best thing is to end it in a fair and dignified way ........ but how often does that happen!
Many of us have some narcissistic traits ...... but a true narcissist isnt as common as we hear it is.
As a parent it is probably better to be supportive to your son .... but don’t get down and dirty with the name calling. Most importantly, don’t alienate the DIL ..... There is a lot of water to go u der the bridge yet! Good luck and take a deep breath and stay calm! X

Having had personal knowledge of living with someone who has narcissistic traits I can assure you he will thrive away from her.
I would worry about the children though. They are possibly damaged by her

My daughter was married to a diagnosed narcissist and sociopath, the trouble these days people mistakenly self diagnose 'control freaks' as being narcissists. Narcissism goes much deeper than this. Yes, they can be looked upon as control freaks trying to control their partners by segregation with threats etc. They go much further than emotional blackmail usually violence. My own daughter was beaten up, had petrol tipped over her. She finally escaped with her young children when she 'disobeyed' him and he threatened to burn the house down with them all in it. This was 8 years ago, she left the area, can't come back and her address was kept secret by court order. Whereby I do have sympathy with the OP, I do feel narcissist is a word which is bandied too much.

Anyone that has lived with a narcissist will have very strong views.
Narcissists are clever manipulative often very charming and attractive.
They are also controlling, abusive and very dangerous.
If you have been closely involved with a narcissist as I have then your first instinct is to warn people of the possible dangers.
Narcissists disguise the disorder very well, they also have a number of supporters often referred to as flying monkeys these people have been manipulated by the narcissist they are in awe of the narc and will help alienate anyone that the narc takes a dislike to.
They are almost impossible to deal with and there is no cure.
I believe that people should not be labelled but anything that raises awareness is for the good.
I have just about survived my mother a definite NPD sufferer but she has many friends and relatives that think she is a Saint and I’m the devil child.
She branded me a liar from a young age so nobody would believe the truth. If I was a child now I would be in care, back in the 60’s & 70’s we were viewed as a nice middle class family and my mother was a paragon of the Catholic Church.
A teacher I once confided in about physical abuse said I must have deserved the beating. I was 9 and she knew the family.
I would hate any child to suffer the childhood I had.
Awareness is key.

There is a good web site called Quora, tells you all about narcissists. Compare, what they say the traits are, so you know what you are dealing with. It's very hard to win against them, I must add, especially in court. Good luck.

Nanapples so sorry to hear that your son has been living with narcissistic abuse. I believe your account and of course your concern for your DS.

Family support and love are important for him and to support him and your DGC going through this.

The effects of the abuse will maybe last a long time but a way to lessen their effects on your DS will be for him to try counselling. Paying privately gets quicker access at:
Www.psychotherapy.co.uk. A regulated register.

Good luck for you all. Don’t listen to the ‘’there are two sides...’’.

Legal advice is essential to deal with the abuse cause of marriage breakdown and to safeguard your DS position.

Perhaps she's insecure & not a narcissist at all. Labelling people seems to be the latest fashion.

It's unpleasant to see your son unhappy but as an adult and one who has access to funds ,is it down to him to make plans, get therapy, whatever.

The children don't seem to get much of a mention?

I would also swerve the social media.