only daughter distanced herself and tgecwholecfamily followed suit.

Not sure how your second to last sentence is gonna work Hithere - when the become adults surely they will make their own choices/decisions? Or will you be as controlling as your parents?

I think this thread shows that people have different ideas to what is this latest reason for estrangement, FOG. Never heard if it, but some of the people that estrange seem to my mind do so for very feeble thing that are just annoying. I would sort out there and then , and if I couldn't just, say let it go, then I would sit down and explain how it wasn't acceptable and what are we going to do about it. If is was neglect or something awful, you would not be having unsupervised visits anyway, in fact no visits, a lot seem to be when grandchildren are being looked after and misdeamorsvdiscovered afterwards, that in itself says a lot. I think more understanding, less judgement and more dialogue would avoid these separations. Also making any child the centre of your universe and your expectations, is it any wonder they become to believe it's all about them and selfish.

Hithere I wonder why any sister would find your parents actions to be acceptable? This is a 'why the world turns round' all people are different.

Peonyrose, FOG is a valid reason to NC.

I've been thinking about this FOG and what appears to be missing on this thread is that there are plenty of EP's and EGP's living in it themselves.

Fear, that they are going to be cut out of their AC's and GC's lives. Obliged to take whatever is thrown at them in case NC is the result. Guilt that when they are finally estranged that they weren't good enough parents.

My brother and sister had/have very different opinions from me about our parents. There was never any estrangement but big sis (the eldest) worshipped them and thought them wonderful, I (middle child) made a big effort to tolerate them but never let them babysit and bro (youngest) was a very distant, occasional visitor. It wasn't helped by the obvious mutual dislike between Mum and his partner.

Even now, with parents gone, my sister would say we had a marvellous childhood, I'd say it was OK and my brother only remembers hurt, humiliation and abuse. If I mention incidents, she denies that they happened or changes/lightens the story, trying to say that I remember it incorrectly. It's all very odd.

Hetty58 I think that is more common than people think. My sister and I are only a year apart and brought up together but we had totally different childhoods. My sister does admit that I was bullied but there is a lot that she denies happened although it was in the open.
It is not unusual for one child to be removed from a family for abuse and the other children to be well cared for.

Smileless, good post. No one, but no one should take abuse from anyone. It is cruel to cut anyone off without a word. I do however, feel that gc will be able one day, will see what has happened is not right, it could take years, but one day they will question where you are, unless they turn out like their parents,but things are more in the open now and talked about, I know if I grew up and found out I had grandparents, I would seek them out and decide for myself. I hope very much that those suffering estrangements have their long lost gc come and find them.

It’s amazing how many people simply never question the fact that they have never met/uncle/cousin/grandparent, they just accept it, they may question it when they’re older, but sometimes it may be too late

"Its sad that the daughter has cut her mother off, but I'll never understand why people fight so hard to be a part of something that they are no longer wanted or needed. And if she feels its bullying when why just not leave her alone and put an end to this alleged bullying?" The crux to the matter, why fight to be unwanted. Find happiness elsewhere.

Smileless, Perhaps you misunderstood the term FOG.

From the Susan Forward Book. Fear is a survival instinct that preserved some of our ancestors in moments of extreme danger. So fear can be a good thing. However, prolonged fear - also known as stress or anxiety, is not so good for us and can lead to increased risk of long term health problems.

Obligation comes from an innate sense of community responsibility. We are born with an instinctive sense of obligation to those around us. Historically, humans who isolated themselves from a community were in much greater danger of perishing. Only those who contributed to the community were accepted by the community. As a result, our communities have evolved in such a way that those who have a strong sense of community responsibility are more likely to be accepted by others and ultimately to produce children. Obligation has served our ancestors well in forming communities. However, when a ruthless person takes advantage of our instinctive sense of obligation, they can manipulate our gut reactions to do things which do not always help us thrive and prosper.

Guilt comes from the same root as obligation. Most of us feel guilt when we do something that we think hurts others or disappoints of others. Our societies have evolved in such a way that it is not socially acceptable to deliberately hurt another person and those who do are often incarcerated, ostracized and condemned by others. However, our instinctive gut reactions of guilt can also be activated when we refuse to help another person. This is where most Non-PD's experience guilt because often in the process of setting boundaries, Non-PD's will have to make a choice of whether or not to give another person, who suffers from a personality disorder, something which they want, which comes at a great personal cost to the Non-PD if they say "no".

FOG can produce a sense of dread and hopelessness and make you do and say things that you are uncomfortable with.

As you see from the read, some need to go NC. For their own self-preservation and health.

Very interesting Norah but I’m sure Susan Forward doesn’t have the monopoly on the words Fear Obligation and Guilt.

Those feelings are also felt by parents/grandparents when their children behave in such a way as to leave them walking on eggshells, afraid to say no to their every demand etc. As Smileless pointed out it’s a two way street.

Pantglas1 Of course SF has no monopoly to the term FOG. I just copied a good explanation. Not see a 2 way street, parents had the upper hand, now when children are adults the dont have to put up with FOG and many wont accept it.

Correction: they dont (not the dont) have to put up with FOG any more.

Relationships are a two - way street - which appears not to be the e expectation from all parties reading some of the estrangement stories on here!

To avoid any potential misunderstanding of my last comment, I mean that all effective relationships are a two - way street and require give and take....and those two things seem quite often not to be given by one party in the stories here ..that is sometimes by AC and sometimes by Parents/Grandparents, every story is different!

My last comment was in reply to Norah

Madgram77 yes every story is different, clearly there seem to be parallels. A child grown has no need to take bad behaiour, free to see to it ending.

Norah I hope what I said didnt suggest that anyone should take bad behaviour, grown child or grandparent!

Of course Norah, as do their children.....and therein lies the problem for an awful lot of adults who go NC. They don’t appear to like it or agree with it when it happens to them!

Be a supportive friend, distract her kindly with other topics of conversation. She will be hurting badly and just needs friendly support.

Pantglas1, yes, not a given that everyone will agree. In Peonyrose post it does appear the whole family agree. Smoke directs to fire, something is wrong coloured in the picture painted.

No Norah I did understand the term FOG, I merely demonstrated that it is equally applicable to EP's and GP's as it is to estranging AC.

When children become adults their relationship with their parents is a two way street. AC don't have the monopoly on experiencing feelings of fear, obligation and guilt.

Really Norah, what ever made you think your explanation was necessary?

Hetty......You and your siblings, all remember differing versions your upbringing.
So how do you know your version is the correct one and your sisters (or brothers) isn't?
I'm not for one minute disbelieving your perspective as you have stated it.
It's just that there are many instances of AC's claiming one thing and GP's claiming the opposite.

How do any of us know?
How many of us start second guessing ourselves.
How many convince themselves a fairy tale is the truth or vice versa?

Namsnanny, the confused question, thanks to asking. That people remember things differently means different experiences happened to them. Some are NC, others rug sweep. Simple.