If you are dealing with narcissism, let’s all help each other.

SpinDriftCoastal

I once read somewhere: learn by heart the traits and modus operandi of a narc and when you recognise run for the hills. This could be a new work colleague, religious representative, a counsellor etc.

Agreed.

The one I know, I got myself away from eventually.

She liked to sue or threaten to sue.
Basically all to keep her illusion of always being right, intact.

Self-centred yes. Unhinged well yes.
But all taken to a whole different level.
Once you know one, you cant unknow it.

I have not been in any close relationships with a narc, but my brother is definitely like this. He ticks all the boxes.

I have not had any contact with him for the last six years and it is totally blissful....

I no longer have to wake up to see a string of barbed text messages or possibly a long email outlining all my faults and how many people hate me.

I found out through the grapevine what he did to his estranged wife and how he treated her and that is nothing but abuse.

Also what he did financially to our mum. But she is dead so that is over and done with.

But yes, a real piece of work. I am confident that I will never talk to him or see him ever again. And it feels great.

It's a way of managing one - probably the easiest way - get out. Room for all options on this thread, if anyone wants support to run for the hills, here's the place to ask for support & advice.

SpinDriftCoastal

I once read somewhere: learn by heart the traits and modus operandi of a narc and when you recognise run for the hills. This could be a new work colleague, religious representative, a counsellor etc.

if you are managing one though, how do you run for the hills?

Sago

Narcs are real charmers, they will always have their followers who are enthralled to them and a few sceptics like yourselves Franbern and Dontcallmelove

It’s always wise to say nothing and watch, if you call out a narc they will do everything in their power to destroy you.

Oh, yes, so very true. I did warn one very lovely member of this group, who was obviously being drawn into this woman's fantasies. Actually spent one whole night with her when she got phoned late one evening by this woman saying she was in a state.
this 'Narcissitc tendency' lady has obviously now identified me as not being taken in and is spreading all sorts of nasty things about me. Fortunately, those she is saying these to are passing them on to me.
Think I really upset her recently, when I was at a local theatre with my daughter (with whom I never seem to have enough time), and this lady and hubbie sat next to us. During the interval I spent a few polite minute whilst she told me how she had been a performer at this theatre, and then spent the rest of that interval chatting to my daughter. Unforgiveable behavior!!!!

I once read somewhere: learn by heart the traits and modus operandi of a narc and when you recognise run for the hills. This could be a new work colleague, religious representative, a counsellor etc.

Thank you Doodledog exactly this.

I have been deeply hurt by some comments here, the lack of empathy is astonishing, ironically this is a one of the many traits of a narcissist.

As you so eloquently put it yes those with lived experience are the most qualified to diagnose.

It may be the case that the term is overused, but that doesn't mean that everyone using it is wrong. Sometimes the term might be used to describe a self-centred person who can't understand anything beyond their own experience, but the actual disorder is far more complicated than that, as anyone who has been in the orbit of a narcissist knows, whatever others might tell them.

It seems ironic that people who have lived experience of narcissism are being diagnosed as wrong about it because they 'aren't qualified' to diagnose.

Unfortunately, a thread for people who have experienced this behaviour has digressed into one about who is competent to diagnose it.

We are all capable of negative actions and emotions, normal people reflect on their own behaviour and try to be better. It’s part of growing as a human being. Being a good person

BlessedArt

@Sago, a clinical diagnosis is not a matter of admission or denial. It’s a matter of a physician assigning a diagnosis from the DSM-5, like any other psych diagnosis. One would need to see a psychiatrist, be assessed, and then diagnosed. I highly doubt all the people labelling others have spoken to their psychiatrists, who then violated patient confidentiality to disclose the NPD diagnosis to others. Yes, people can be observed by anyone as selfish and manipulative, but that is entirely different to casually assigning them a personality disorder.

I can think of times when I've been selfish and manipulative, & I'm sure if we're honest most of us can.

But there are those around who would never recognise their behaviour, on reflection, to be selfish, because self-criticism is almost impossible for them.

I do think NPD in many cases manifests because of childhood trauma, so I wouldn't just think "horrible people" - there's a person beyond the NPD. But that doesn't make it any easier to live with.

I think the competitiveness where there should be supportiveness is the hardest.

I think most of us who were abused long term by a narcissist (or sociopath) and have had to receive medical and psychological help will be more aware of their abusers profile and characteristics

It’s helpful to at least have an explanation of why someone who is supposed to love you can behave in such a way, alongside the charm and gaslighting with others.

I understand why people are confused. It’s far easier to believe the charming enigma than the shy, often fearful victims that have to ‘show face’ - of course it must be them

Oreo

Sago
I wasn’t trying to rain on anyone’s parade, but honestly SM is awash with people calling their DIL or their ML or their ex a narcissist.
Your Mother sounded unhinged more than a narcissist and I feel for you, but in any caseI think all can’t be true narcissists and there will be many showing awful behaviour for very different reasons.And yes, some of them will be exhibiting very selfish behaviour for their own ends, some may be narcissistic and some psychopaths in there too plus the mentally unhinged.
I just want people to think that throwing around the word narcissist may be too simplistic.It’s fair enough to want to tell your story and maybe derive comfort from hearing others telling of awful behaviours from relatives and friends.I just wanted to make a point, that’s all, and having made it I shall leave now.I feel sorry for all who have suffered pain, either physical or mental from others, do not doubt that.

That does not make me feel any better, I knew mother for 58 years have had counselling and read so much about NPD and you say she was unhinged.

I would love to know what you think a narcissist is.

We had a narcissist in our family, very handsome, very arty, and very charming. He managed to fool everyone who encountered him. He made me feel uneasy when I was six and he was eighteen. He just gave me the creeps. Long gone now but left a trail of destruction with both his kids, one who is scarred for life. He was just so convincing, people were taken in by him.

Sago
I wasn’t trying to rain on anyone’s parade, but honestly SM is awash with people calling their DIL or their ML or their ex a narcissist.
Your Mother sounded unhinged more than a narcissist and I feel for you, but in any caseI think all can’t be true narcissists and there will be many showing awful behaviour for very different reasons.And yes, some of them will be exhibiting very selfish behaviour for their own ends, some may be narcissistic and some psychopaths in there too plus the mentally unhinged.
I just want people to think that throwing around the word narcissist may be too simplistic.It’s fair enough to want to tell your story and maybe derive comfort from hearing others telling of awful behaviours from relatives and friends.I just wanted to make a point, that’s all, and having made it I shall leave now.I feel sorry for all who have suffered pain, either physical or mental from others, do not doubt that.

Oreo

What I find hard to understand Wyllow3 is with all your experience and expertise you have got yourself into all those situations without recognising a narcissist.
Once bitten twice shy?
Also, certain words like narc, toxic, gaslighting, flying monkeys are bandied around so much as to have lost much meaning.
I expect that many so called narcs are simply very selfish people.
Unless diagnosed , and I agree many won’t want a diagnosis anyway, I don’t think we can give labels to everyone who exhibit bad behaviours towards us.

Had you read the article fully and maybe taken time to process it you should understand that Wyllow3 was vulnerable after her relationship with the first narc, a second narc then moved in on her offering empathy.
He would have spotted his prey and gained her trust, this is how they work and boy are they clever!
She is a psychotherapist and knows the signs but he was convincing.

Regarding your comment that narcs are probably just selfish then hear this, from as long as I can remember my mother said to me I rue the day you were born, she asked my why I wasn’t more like my brother or cousins.

Her favourite thing to do was to tell my friends that I was horrible and they would soon find out and stop playing with me.

I was told I was a guttersnipe and would eventually find my place in the gutter.

She emptied my childhood bank account of all the money I had diligently saved and bought my brother a cassette player with the proceeds.

My hair was cut short into unflattering styles and my clothes were just horrendous, I was pretty and she was jealous.

The smallest thing could send her into a narcissistic rage, she would scream, at me humiliate, hit me, go to my room and literally turn it upside down.

She told anyone close to me I was a compulsive liar so they would’nt believe me if I told them what she had done.

She loved to make up a story to my father so he would give me a beating, it saved her doing it.

I spent my childhood treading on eggshells, listening to footsteps to try and assess her mood, I was made to feel responsible for all her emotions.

I spent years sitting at the dining table with my parents and brother whilst they ridiculed me, I hated food and I hated mealtimes more, I couldn’t wait to go upstairs and throw up, I felt cleansed.

When I was eventually taken to a doctor because my weight was so low she told him I was a picky eater and refused food.

She told me my teachers had all but given up on me because I was stupid, she said the other children didn't like me.

This thread was supposed to be somewhere we could come and gain support and you have decided to tell us we are dealing with people that are probably just a bit selfish.

People have been open and honest and you have basically just p@@@@d all over them.

What I find hard to understand Wyllow3 is with all your experience and expertise you have got yourself into all those situations without recognising a narcissist.
Once bitten twice shy?
Also, certain words like narc, toxic, gaslighting, flying monkeys are bandied around so much as to have lost much meaning.
I expect that many so called narcs are simply very selfish people.
Unless diagnosed , and I agree many won’t want a diagnosis anyway, I don’t think we can give labels to everyone who exhibit bad behaviours towards us.

Well, they are the last people to be prepared to do. I do agree with reading all you can. I was lucky I had someone to discuss things like gaslighting and flying monkeys in the end but read an awful lot and to be able to understand - it's a great start.
Without it, it's walking round in a fog of low self worth and helpless ness and even - since it's fostered on you - self-blame.

Exactly what Doodledog says.

You have more chance of having tea on the moon without King than you do of getting a narc to being assessed.

BlessedArt

NPD is a clinical diagnosis. I wonder how many people have actually received said diagnosis from an actual psychiatrist since it became so internet-trendy to label everyone a narcissist who we have problems with. Not to downplay anyone’s issues but it does make me wonder.

This is true, but it also contributes to the difficulty people have when they are dealing with narcissism. They are so often shut down by gatekeepers of diagnoses. It's not always necessary to have the behaviour signed off - do you need a dentist to tell you you have toothache?

I have had a narcissist in my life (she is no longer part of it now, thank goodness), and know how difficult it is to recognise what is happening at first. When you do, they have become enmeshed in your life, which makes it even harder to get away from it. I never want to go through that again, and have every sympathy with those who have no way out. 'My' narc didn't have a diagnosis - the idea of her thinking for a moment that she might be damaged in some way is laughable, despite her string of failed relationships with people whose reputations she has done her best to destroy. I was lucky to have my husband to reassure me that none of what happened was my fault, but when people are married to (or related to) a narcissist they don't have that luxury.

I was an only child raised by a narcissistic mother (now, thankfully, dead) and a father who was loving and kind but understandably withdrawn and not loving and kind enough to protect me from her constant criticism and rages. We never discussed what went on. Like others all the abuse and emotional neglect I thought to be my fault and that I was an inadequate and unlikeable person.

When I was in my 50s, a friend showed me a list of 20 or so narcissistic traits, all of which I recognised in my mother.
I slowly began to realise she was the abnormal one, but the damage was very extensive and it's left me a people pleaser with little motivation and energy in life.

I can quite honestly say that I had no inkling that I might have needs, or that I had the right to assert them. My whole young life was trying to make her life perfect (obviously impossible) and walking on eggshells to avoid her rages. I can honestly say that hardly a day passed without my feeling the fight or flight response and when you're a small child, you have nowhere to go and daren't fight.

Also like the narcissists described here, they can be charming and all good things, so other people can't and won't believe how they change behind closed doors. I realise now, that we had minimal contact with either side of our extended family so I had no support from anyone who might have been interested.

At least there is lots of information now so it's easier to recognise. But if you're a child with a parent like this, you don't know it's not normal until the damage has been done. Unless and until someone notices, the parent has all the power.

There's a difference between "diagnosing" someone with NPD and recognizing observable narcissistic behavior patterns. Anyone can recognize the patterns with enough practice.

Speaking about narcissists is a way for victims of similar behaviors to identify each other. It's the not talking about it that does damage. The less it is talked about the less it can be recognized and responded to appropriately.

Mimi11 exactly this. My ex husband (I now know) was (is!!) a narcissist, I'm nowsure of it. He isolated me slowly, but surely over the 21 years of our marriage, firstly from friends, belittling me, completely destroyed my trust in my own memory, then tried to isolate me from my parents and sister. Then I got a job working in a school. My colleagues gave me back my self esteem and I plucked up the courage to divorce him. The Judge at the divorce proceedings saw straight through him and made things much easier for me. The divorce cost me a great deal financially. The marriage scarred me for life, but I have not had any contact with him for years, but know through other people that he has since remarried and divorced ... again and had 3 more children! But my life with my new (very supportive) husband is so "normal" and he has encouraged me to enjoy life. I'm so thankful for the kind support of others too. You need all the help you can get when you try to make the break which is why I support women's refuges. If you suspect your partner is a narc, get out as soon as it is practical for you to do so. Honestly, it's worth the effort. Your life will improve 100%. Good luck! X

BlessedArt

NPD is a clinical diagnosis. I wonder how many people have actually received said diagnosis from an actual psychiatrist since it became so internet-trendy to label everyone a narcissist who we have problems with. Not to downplay anyone’s issues but it does make me wonder.

This is what I think.
Anyone who puts their own needs before those of the complainer is labelled a"narcissist" when it might well be the complainer who simply won't take responsibility for their own decisions or lives and deflects responsibility on to literally anyone and/or everyone else who is/ are of course labelled accordingly.
I sympathise, of course , with anyone dealing with a truly abusive individual.

Totally believe you.
Attachment is so powerful. and when you have a Catholic priest at work.

My assailant had/has some flying monkeys but in the end the people that mattered have mostly lost their power for me.

I think in some ways everyone tries to control their lives, and there is nothing wrong with trying to get what you want from the world and other people.

It's how you do it, and to some extent, those things you let happen to you (when you are an adult) if there is a choice. (Easy to say, hard to do)

I didn’t see it until about 20 years ago.

I was 40 when it started to dawn on me that it was her and not me then my brother (golden child) to whom she was estranged died and things started to unravel.

I didn’t feel like a whole person until she was dead.

Unfortunately she left a trail of destruction behind and there are still family members that think I coerced her for money, stole from her etc.

Some of her lies were so fantastic, I find it hard to believe people fell for it.

She had the ultimate accessories though, a Catholic priest who was her flying monkey and of course the Church.