Concerned about worsening relationship between son and grandson

You don't get involved except to listen to your son. It may be that your grandson is particularly difficult or it may be that he's acting as many teenagers do. Does your son ask for advice? If not, say nothing. If so, suggest he leaves the room if his son is rude. Ask him what he thinks he should do and how he could accomplish it. Are he and his wife in agreement on behaviour discipline? Be available for your grandson too. Listen to him but don't judge. If you get involved you risk falling out with your son, your daughter in law or your grandson. I was a difficult teenager and grew into a reasonable adult.

It is not too late to set boundaries, people will treat you the way you let them.

The parents need to tell him how they feel, in a calm conversation. If he is too immature for that then remove electronics as a consequence of rudeness.

Awful that the father is talking about estrangement because of bad parenting, children are taught manners they are not born with them.

What are Jacks hobbies or interests? Could your son engage with him in those?

A friend's daughter went through a similar phase at the same age. She was a long awaited, much loved only child. I was amazed at how much cheek her parents put up with when she was younger, but I think her parents thought her "smart" retorts to adults generally were clever and funny.
Roll on 15 and she went through a bad patch .. expelled from school for bad behaviour, mixing with "potheads".
Her parents stood by her through all this. She remained living at home and they did their best to avoid confrontations to the extent of leaving the room/house when trouble started to escalate.
By her early twenties she settled into a lovely relationship and is now a wonderful mother.
I would suggest, if they are thinking about therapy, the parents have some first to discuss the way forward with their son... but I'm no expert.

Yankee Gran, do you meet the two of them on occasions when they are together?

If so, as a third adult person present , you could drop in a casual remark e.g. : "Are you sure of that?" or e.g. " Such an allegation is fairly serious."

May be the boy is frustrated by parents who never discuss anything rationally or at depth.

I agree you do or say nothing.

He is 15 - he is a teenager and this age is notorious for not liking or pay attention to your parents.

It will pass

Hithere, the behavior might pass but it is no sure thing. People are different and sometimes you just have to accept someone, even a rude 15 year old, for what they are. You don't have to tolerate it. Nor, do you have to give up trying to show them the error of their ways. I hate to say it, but -Y.G. and her son might want to brace themselves for Jack to not be much better as an adult. Hopefully, he matures to be a fine young man that gets along with everyone.

Was your own son a difficult teenager YG?

I would try not to go down the route of taking it too seriously. Apparently my sister and I fought so violently, someone who witnessed one of our battles, told our DM solemnly that we would both end up in an asylum. We didn't.
The constant cheek must be wearing for your DS. As others have said tell him to leave the room.
There are self-help books for handling teenagers.
www.goodreads.com/book/show/3763500-help-i-ve-got-a-teenager

Wow! Lots of sound comments up there and thank you all so much. Yes, I am wary of interfering, but after some reflection, I think I will ask my son to contact me when he can talk freely and I can sound him out about the consequences for Jack when he is so rude. AND emphasise the need to just walk away.

My son was a relatively easy teen so I think this has come as a shock to him - and Jack is an otherwise lovely young man. He often comes to stay, and we have an easy relationship (I let him know early on that I would not suffer any cheek from him). Although his parents are extremely supportive of his interests and hobbies, they have not set sufficient boundaries, all of which is aggravated by teen hormones. I am optimistic enough to think he will grow out of this, but I am concerned about the damage to the father/son relationship this is causing in the meantime.
Any suggestions about how I might start a conversation with Jack about the situation?

are there any father/son relationships among family/ friends that might be a model of better communication.
perhaps with cousins or neighbours, that you could sort of join him in on, to do activities together, so that he sees another more positive, pleasant way of talking with parents.
only with people you know well and trust, of course.

YankeeGran if his behaviour is fine with you - then, really it's up to your son to sort it out.

They are so different with changing situations and people. My eldest daughter was always swearing at that age - pretty hostile too - yet her teacher said she was so kind, thoughtful and polite at school. I had to check that she had the right girl!

Hi yankeegran. It sounds as though you yourself have a good relationship with your grandson.
I think the way I would approach it, would be to wait until I had grandson on his own (and in a receptive mood).
Then eventually I’d introduce his dad into the conversation in a casual sort of way eg ‘what’s your dad up to this afternoon?’
Then try & slip in ‘how are you two getting along these days?’ & see what he says.
I would just listen & not be tempted to comment. ‘Mirroring’ (repeating back to someone what they’ve just said to you, but in the form of a question, eg, GS says something like ‘oh I never see him’ you would just say ‘You never see him?’) can be a useful prompt to get them to confide a little more in you.

Hope things work out for you & your GS.

There’s nothing you can do....even though you were right. Discipline is very different now, in that young parents are bombarded with the ‘ correct ‘ way of doing it. More about negotiation, and less about correction.

Your grandson won’t be the only one like this, I can assure you. We’re well on the way to getting a whole generation of children like this. They’ve learnt they’re in charge.

He is 15 and still a child, he still needs engaging with in positive ways. Dad needs to work on spending positive time with him and find interests and hobbies in common.

Telling him he is spoiled and volitipe would just lead to him internalising that message and acting out more.

Concentrate on the positives

They do tend to turn into decent human beings by the age of 25.

If you try to speak to your grandson you risk a major fallout. As a teenager, he's probably going to think that his dad has been complaining about him. It may be true, but you then risk their relationship disintegrating further. I would not raise the subject at all with him. That is for his parents to deal with.

Your son and his wife have to stop tolerating this behaviour, but if they have allowed their son to behave like this from an early age it will be very difficult.
You say he doesn't behave like this with you because you made it clear you wouldn't tolerate it; is he rude to other people or simply his parents? I doubt whether his school and authority figures in his life put up with it either, so his parents have to face up to the problem of their making and take action.
Why are so many parents afraid of correcting their children?

Hetty58

My DD was a difficult teenager and is now a difficult adult. I love her but it does affect how I feel about her.

Walking away and not engaging is the only way to deal with my DD. Arguing back makes things worse and my point is never listened to anyway.

It's very sad. I don't think she wants to damage our relationship, it's just the way she is. But the damage is being done nevertheless.

DiscoDancer1975 - you sound like a younger generation and more switched on to current attitudes to parenting. Everything seems to be up for negotiation - none of that "Because I said so" or "Because I'm your mother/father" these days. But the result is as we see. And when I let Jack know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not find his cheekiness acceptable, I have never had it since...so apparently no irreparable harm was done. That said, I think it is hard for my DS/DIL to reverse patterns set over years. Nevertheless, and although my son has not asked for advice, I think the fact that he has mentioned his concerns several times means he IS looking for a better way to handle things and just walking away (and curtailing use of the phone and/or hitting him in the pocket could be effective too) might be called for. No audience, no rude behaviour, right!?

I would recommend the book by Rob Parsons called 'The sixty minute father'. It is called that because the book is supposed to take an hour to read. Rob Parsons has written other books too more specifically about teenagers.

YankeeGran

DiscoDancer1975 - you sound like a younger generation and more switched on to current attitudes to parenting. Everything seems to be up for negotiation - none of that "Because I said so" or "Because I'm your mother/father" these days. But the result is as we see. And when I let Jack know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not find his cheekiness acceptable, I have never had it since...so apparently no irreparable harm was done. That said, I think it is hard for my DS/DIL to reverse patterns set over years. Nevertheless, and although my son has not asked for advice, I think the fact that he has mentioned his concerns several times means he IS looking for a better way to handle things and just walking away (and curtailing use of the phone and/or hitting him in the pocket could be effective too) might be called for. No audience, no rude behaviour, right!?

Yes...that’s the sort of parenting I had, and it worked!

I watch my children now, having to be so careful what they do all the time, especially around discipline. I did smack my my children, but it was rare, and as a last resort. They don’t remember the smacks as much as the threat of one. The ‘death’ stare was enough!

Mostly, I was able to be firm, and that was all that was needed. I feel with one of my sons and his wife...they’re almost asking the children if it’s alright to tell them off!!

The result? Children are calling the shots, and they’re not very good at it.

I always say to my children, ‘ your children are behaving normally, and pushing boundaries, but it’s also normal to be disciplined for it. It’s makes the difference between having a great life with your kids....or not’

My son and his wife could have a better one I’m sure.

DiscoDancder1975 - Amen to all you say! I think you and I read the same parenting manual - or maybe we parented the way we were parented.
It is not the role of parents to be friends with their children or, as you say, to almost seek permission to discipline for bad behaviour. Parents have life experience and that should enable them to give the support and guidance children need. As someone noted, children have many friends but only one set of parents and they have them for a reason!
You said, "I always say to my children, ‘ your children are behaving normally, and pushing boundaries, but it’s also normal to be disciplined for it." Well said! I think I am going to gently approach my son with that.
Cheers!

I heard DD speaking to her DD aged 6 , telling her 3 times to get into the car. "She doesn't listen" said DD. "This is what she's like now she just doesn't listen to me"
Was that a plea for help or just a usual moan? I think DGD is wonderful and can do no wrong.

Perhaps smaller families nowadays add to the discipline problems?
My DD was number 4 so there was no time for nonsense. She was an easy child. Sometimes we argued/bargained about clothes. She refused to wear trousers.