Teaching grandchildren Christian values

The church I have most to do with is very community based Greatnan. You get all sorts. I'm not sure there is a really 'posh' person amongst them. All are welcome and all come! They have the same sort of activities as I remember from my childhood church - craft evenings, socials, outings. It's not C of E though. It's the one that's a bit like Congregational. (can't remember the name at the mo - senior moment - it'll come to me)

United Reformed! That's what it is. (not easy to remember.We just called our Congregational church 'the Cong'!)

That's good, Jingle.

I like joan and Mishap*'s descriptions and suggestions for a secular organisation that unites the community.

G'day, assalamu alaikum and shalom. I just finished watching the final episode of one of my favourite TV shows, "Little Mosque On The Prairie", and as the closing dialog was spoken and the credits rolled I heard this song, "To Love" by Canadian singer/songwriter David Wilcox. I'm an apostate who cheerfully and unashamedly embraces his atheism, but as a humanist I'm open minded enough to appreciate some of the sentiments of Christianity and Islam. For those amongst you who do embrace a religion please have a listen. You might get something out of it.
davidwilcox.com/index.php?page=songs&display=1197&category=Airstream

Thanks for that, PoppaRob.
I have been trying to find the answer to something that puzzles me for many years, but no member of any religion has been able to give me an answer. When there is a disaster such as a rockfall in a mine, and some men are killed, we are urged to pray to God (which god?) for 'a miracle' to save the survivors. If your god is able to perform such a thing, why did he/she/it let the accident happen in the first place? And does he/she/it love the ones to be saved more than the ones that died?
When I was still a believer I asked the nun at my catholic junior school why god did not grant my prayers and I was told that No is an answer and god knows what is best for me
In that case (I wanted to argue but of course did not dare) what was the point of praying?
I am still asking but answers come there none!

it's possibly a bit of a mistake to think of God as a celestial slot machine, where you put prayers in and He churns out the goodies!

the problem of suffering is an ongoing challenge to believers, yet still some people believe - including those who have experienced suffering.

But what do they believe, granbunny - and why?
In the face of so much disease, poverty, famine, disasters.....why do people continue to believe in an all-loving, all-powerful deity?

Great post Granbunny.

Greatnan, I don't think believers do consider God to be all powerful. All-loving, yes.

Ah, an answer at last - thank you, jingle.
I was obviously seriously misled by my teachers and priests because I was taught that god was omnipotent. When was he downgraded?
And if he can't fix things, what is the point of praying to him?

No one thinks God can control the forces of nature, anymore than he can control the forces of evil in the world. Christians believe that it is his world but he doesn't have all power over it. Many things are caused by man and many by design faults. (Yeah! Maybe He's not perfect either)

We really need to worry when He thinks "Right! I'm gonna scrub this lot and start again"!

(or not )

You pray to him to get strength to change the things we are able to change. Or to bear the things we can't.

I respect people's beliefs in a creator/personal god etc. but cannot go there myself.

The world is created on the basis of kill or be killed - and it is hard to regard that with equanimity or to see it as the product of a benevolent creator. All day every day death and destruction rule our world - at the micro level (bacteria, viruses) and at the macro (wars, coups, lions killing their prey). I accept all of this (we have no choice) but cannot believe that there is a benevolent creator, who (and this really does defy belief!) wishes to have a personal relationship with us and cares about our well-being. I find the latter premise really quite arrogant to be honest. I remember after the tsunami, a person who had lost all his family saying that he felt god had sent the tsunami to test him - however deeply I felt for his sorrow and understood the need for him to explain it in some way, I was still bowled over by the sheer arrogance of the idea that all those people had died just to test one man's faith.

If there is a creator who is involved with us, I am forced to conclude that his/her/its interests and concerns are equal as regards the all creations - in other words that viruses are as important in the scheme of things as humans - otherwise how can a towering genius like Mozart be wiped out by a virus?

I am always amazed when believers thank their deity for good things, but do not cuss and swear at him/her/it for all the bad things. The myths of Adam and Eve and similar others in different religions are an attempt to explain evil and to dissociate it from the creator, but they are man-made attempts, and very artificial constructs designed to try and make what people wish to believe sit with the facts.

Having said all this, I am as moved as anyone by the beauties of the earth; but also very aware of the cruelties inherent in the our world.

As I have said in a former post, I respect the role of liberal churches in their communities, and respect the views of others (including many of my best friends who are believers) but am frankly terrified by what is happening with religion in the world now - fundamentalism is an inevitable consequence of beliefs that deal in fundamental questions and we are seeing the rise of this pernicious force in all religions around the world and the consequences could be terrifying.

I am just reading Christopher Hitchens' autobiography and have previously read his God is Not Great - he is a very erudite man, with a flowing witty writing style, and above all a towering compassion on behalf of his fellow beings. I would recommend his writing to everyone, believer or not, as he has some important things to say.

That's O.K. then - I am not missing anything because I can manage that without divine intervention. (But with a little help from my friends!)

I don't think God sends viruses or tsunamis. They are beyond his control. He is not all powerful. But he is all loving.

We can't know for sure what happens to people after death. We only see it from the point of view of ourselves, left behind.

Just to make it clear, if anyone might be at all interested (which I doubt) my faith is not rock solid by a long way.

If god is the creator (which seems to be a central tenet in most religions) he/she/it did not "send viruses" but simply made them along with everything else; as well as making the physical universe and the forces that rule it, including those that create tsunamis.

Where does the idea that god is "all-loving" come from? There is nothing in the world to suggest this at all. If he/she/it is all-loving, are viruses equally loved? - they are just as much creatures of the creator.

I believe that I do not know the answers to these things or any of the big questions (starting with the biggest "Why not nothing?"), and neither does anyone else. The only way forward that I can see (that does not involve the fundamental dangers inherent in religions) is to embrace that unknowing as part of the human condition and to live one's life as kindly and humanely as possible, spreading as much happiness as you can.

As to what happens to us after death, nobody knows, and again we have to embrace and accept that as a basic factor in our lives. Trying to find answers to this is quite impossible and can only be speculation. My assumption is that our atoms return to the stardust whence they came and that the state of being dead is as untroubling to us as the state of not being alive before we were born.

I recommend reading Sam Harris as a philosopher plus the writings of biological scientists if one wants to understand what is known about death and what happens after death. Sam Harris gives very good explanations of the physical processes that happen in the brain and what happens (or, rather, doesn't happen) in a dead brain. If I remember rightly, it's in the book called The Moral Landscape. His other books are good too.

www.samharris.org/

I've heard God called an 'imaginary sky friend' and that says it all to me. While that imaginary friend simply provides comfort, I'm OK about it all, but I loathe the fact that wars are fought over different versions of this sky friend.

I think all religions would have died out long ago, if they weren't such a terrific control tool for the ruling elite of the world, from with the Ancient Romans in known history, to America and the Middle East today.Then there's the Vatican, the C of E.............

And the most pernicious aspect of a religion is the belief in an afterlife for the 'good'. THIS life is what matters and we should strive to make it as good as possible, but deeply religious people living in poverty and misery simply hope for heaven. Hence suicide bombers.

Still, in England and here in Australia people tend to keep their Christian religion low key. Not much bother is caused these days in the name of Christianity, though I'd be peed of by the rabid evangelicans and other such nutters if I lived in America!!

Islam - well, that's another story.

I'm not sure I believe God did create the world. But I still think there might be a God in it. IYSWIM. And you probably don't.

That was Baggy called God that Joan.

you don't wanna to take any notice of the Bags.

"she only does it to annoy, because she knows it teases"

or is that me?!

Thanks for that reference, bagitha, I will have a look on Amazon.
I am afraid Christianity is still causing untold misery and needless deaths all over the world by the ban on condom use in countries where HIV/Aids is rife and by failing to condemn the persecution and murder of homosexuals in many countries. The sexual abuse of children and the consequent cover up by the hierarchy of the catholic church is an on-going scandal.
The cosy image of the country vicar calling for tea and just waffling about Gentle Jesus really does not tell the whole story. Possibly that is the view of Christianity that some of our members embrace.
I recommend a look at www.danoah.com to get some insight into the hatred shown by some Christians in the USA towards minorities.

PoppaRob, lovely to hear from you and the song by David Wilcox is terrific, I plan to share it with my church group in a couple of weeks time.

It is hard to explain the problem of pain and suffering from a Christian perspective; greater theological minds than mine have struggled with the issue - some have even turned from their previously held Christian beliefs because of it - and many have been driven into a deeper faith. I could recite the arguments, but you've probably heard them before. I can only say that from my perspective I have experienced joy and pain and simply regard both as part of the human condition. I experience the presence of God in both.

That's fine *grannyactivist" but when some Christians start spouting that god loves all the little children... us atheists can only stand around with our jaws agape. None of the convoluted rationalisations seem to work when you apply them to an African 2 year old.