return to childhood religion

When we were very small children, our first instincts were to grab all we could, and trample our siblings underfoot while grabbing. Our parents taught us to treat one another with love and consideration. At first we were nice to our brothers and sisters because that was how our parents wanted us to be, but as we grew older we valued them for themselves, and most of us continue to do so even when our mother and father (or other examples) are long gone.

All genuine religions, and civilised secular societies, like loving parents, teach a code of behaviour toward others, Perhaps if "humanity" could grow up out of their childish selfishness everyone would treat everyone else as well as they treat a beloved sibling and there would be no need of "religious" morality.

Dawkins is a very thorough academic. He does not misquote. Check his references, which will be detailed and accurate unless there has been a typing error. Whether one agrees with his arguments or not, he cannot be accused of deliberately misquoting. I suspect he is using the King James bible when he refers to it at all. I believe that version is usually highly regarded, at least as to language.

milliej Which version of the Bible does Dawkins misquote? There are lots of them in English, let alone in other languages – all translations from mostly Aramaic (OT) and ancient Greek (NT). There are also various "original" versions or fragments of "original versions" which Biblical scholars will probably continue to argue over until the end of the world.

Like so many of the other posters on here, I was brought up as a catholic, attended a convent boarding school and reached adulthood so full of the fear of God and of death, that it wasn't surprising I left the church. I did go back for a while when my children reached school age, but it caused many problems, not least with my husband, who had no time for the church.

Then, happily for me, I found the Unitarians - a spiritual community who encourage you to think for yourself. There is no creed and everyone has the right to seek truth and meaning for themselves. They claim no exclusive revelation or status for themselves and simply respect and tolerate all who follow different paths. The result is that in our congregation we are all there just because we want to be and our spiritual journeys are lived out in company. I would not have believed it works, but it does. I am only sorry I never discovered them earlier.

Apologies for the double post... it took so long to send I thought it had died.

It does go on PatriciaPT. Every atom of every compound in our bodies was first created in the nuclear fission of stars, so we came from starstuff which is wonderful in itself, and when our electrical and chemical processes cease whether we're buried or cremated those atoms "live" on. Whether you follow a god or not it's pretty cool!

It does go on PatriciaPT. Every atom of every compound in our bodies was first created in the nuclear fission of stars, so we came from starstuff which is wonderful in itself, and when our electrical and chemical processes cease whether we're buried or cremated those atoms "live" on. Whether you follow a god or not it's pretty cool!

How about thinking that the energy/life force/creativity which produces and maintains the whole thing (by which I mean universe, galaxy, cosmos - the lot) and also is the life in each one of us, simply continues after we are gone and somehow our life is absorbed into the cosmos, perhaps becoming part of new life as it is created? I can't really articulate it because it's way beyond my capacity - but then, if I could grasp it, it wouldn't be worth grasping. Would it?
That's why I find all these defining 'truths' about gods and their relationships to us to be no longer satisfying.

Dear Kiwigran...I am happy for you...I'm also happy for me...

supernana - I too believe every atom of my physical being will be recycled by nature. And I too wish to live my life well, doing no harm to any living thing, hopefully leaving this world having done all I could to bless others, and give back to my fellow man that which will encourage, enhance and uplift those who come into my life. But I am also fully aware that I am not just flesh and blood, but also soul and spirit.
I used to believe at the point of death there was just annihilation....but I came to the realisation that that was a cop out, it meant I could abandon all responsibility for discovering the reason for my existence.
The reason we are all brought into this world is to experience what it means to be fully human, the good and the bad, to discover the best of ourselves is to be connected to God's Spirit. I have known the comfort of His nearness, and His gentle guidance at difficult times in my life. He has proved Himself to be deeply aware of my comings and goings. I now KNOW my life will continue with Him after physical death.

Joan...you make perfect sense...enjoy the day

Heleena, I wouldn't worry about people picking and choosing which bits of the bible to accept and which to reject, I think this is perfectly OK. it isn't one book after all: as the name suggest, it is a collection of books. Some bits contradict other bits: do you go with 'an eye for an eye' or 'turn the other cheek', for instance?

I understand completely that many people refuse to accept without question, things written in the Middle East 2000 years ago, before modern scientific knowledge. Some people pick and choose, while still maintaining religious belief: others, like me, reject the lot.

Supernana, I agree with you, and feel the same way.

Kiwigran - thank you for your response. I believe that at the moment of death, every atom of my being will be "recycled" by nature. I therefore have no fear of the here-after, as for me, it doesn't exist. I aim to live my life well, do my utmost not to cause harm to any living thing and am content to hope that when my life-span is over - I shall have done my best and may even leave behind a legacy of love...

tjspompa, I agree with you totally and I have not found my God yet.

I have looked but do not understand the explainations of my fellow humans trying to get me to understand the meaning of things such as the Trinity. If there is a God I am sure he will understand my reluctance at not following for the sake of it. If I don't understand what is written in the bible I don't undertand it.

Many so called christians I know pick and choose the bits they want and disregard other bits, or even tell me times have changed and the bible must 'keep up'. Mankind makes the bible ambiguous - I am a very black or white type of peorson, it either is or it isn't.

If there is a God, he knows what is in my heart

I am a little scared to comment on this post, it is such an emotive subject, and I'm sure many of you think me a little flippant, so I will try hard to stay serious.
Firstly, I have not found my God yet, whilst, in times of distress, I would love to have spiritual comfort, it does not come.

All religions provide a framework of ideals that enable humans to live in theoretical harmony with each other, those ideals are what many of our laws are based on.

If your God finds you, or you find him, them embrace it, that means there is a place in your life for him, and I'm sure he will enhance your experience of life. But we must all be tolerant of those that choose a different religion or none at all.

I don't believe in any religion, as I cannot suspend disbelief sufficiently. Logic always prevails - I can't help it.

But wouldn't it be great if reincarnation could be proven? Imagine if we all KNEW we would be reincarnated as another human being, but did not know where.

Think of how the powerful countries would invest in poorer areas and countries, just in case they were reborn into third world poverty. Imagine how social welfare nets would be entrenched, just in case Mr Rich Bastard got reincarnated as the baby of a single Mum in a depressed council estate. Joining a union to improve working conditions would almost be a sacrament, like baptism. Social justice programs would prevail.......ah, if only........

I completely understand why you would walk away from an organisation that would treat children in that way...that's not Christianity. Being the best you can be as a Humanist is, I suppose, a viable alternative. But what about your spirit....is there not a need within you to believe there's more to you than the few years we live on this earth?

I was educated in a Catholic convent. I spent most lunch breaks in the Lady chapel saying the rosary and praying to be "good". Why? Because as a non-Catholic, I was informed that I could not go to heaven and would therefore remain in a place called Limbo [which, as an impressionable eleven year old, frightened me a hell of a lot.] During the five years I attended the convent, certain experiences turned my thinking about religion inside out and upside down. I was never happier than on the day I walked away from the misery of that school. I am a Humanist...and proud of it

Amen Carmel.
Who can say they know all the answers, are the superior thinkers and believers (or non-believers)?
The beauty of Gods creation is that we are individuals with free will and can make our own choices.
To own our failings and to strive to be the best we can be and to accept others as they are is ok for me.

For me it was to find freedom in the Church! Freedom from my own sins and freedom from those committed against me. I was brought up in a non-christian home, divorced parents but was always searching the ache inside - that which needed healing and filling and becoming more of who I was and am. The Catholic Church is full of sinners trying to understand life and maybe trying to become saints - after all Jesus said "I have not come for healthy but the sick". Failing and sometimes succeeding but needing each other to help us on our way - and also our friends outside the Church do this sometimes more. After all Jesus came to teach us to become more human. Mother Theresa used to say:- If a Jew could become a better Jew, a Christian a better Christian, a Hindu a better Hindu, etc.

Too harsh PoppaRob!
The Trinity....one God yet three is not at all as you suggest! God is far above and beyond our understanding but your 'faith' in evolution and indeed belief system has to be as doubtful as you say Christianity is!
Ok some folk say they have 'evidence' but who's word are you taking, a persons and you believe them?
I'm not saying Dinasour's didn't exist or that the world is older than the bible says (but I can say I don't know definitely how old it is!).
That is not as important as the present, how we live and our future. The past seems to be very popular in todays culture and I wonder why because it's past and whatever, we can't change it and we don't seem to have learned much from it because we repeat our mistakes!

I did say in one post that the bible was handed down with great care because it was so important (to humanity!) by Polycarp a disciple of the apostle John who walked with the Lord when he was on earth, as well as others as they spread out across the world to tell people of this wonderfully good news!
That God loves us so much (and is able!) to die yet live, I mean what sort of a God would He be if He couldn't do anything He wanted to. Actually He didn't want to die and had a great struggle in doing so, which in His humanity is understandable! He did it so that we can know God and not rely on ourselves because we can't earn or buy our own eternal place with Him. It's a free gift but cost God Himself, in Jesus ...a lot!
Let's face it this world is a mess, and mans inhumanity to man (or for the politically correct make that people!) we continue to destroy the planet and people!
Can we go on like this, no we can't and God is watching us. I also think that to say people of ancient times were so ignorant, superstitious and paranoid, does history a great dis-service! Who built the pyramids?
Who gave the world so much wisdom (Socrates for one!) who built Road systems, gave us (in UK) hot baths, the Romans!
No, no your argument won't suffice PoppaRob but it's good to talk ;)

The sad part is, a split second after your spirit leaves your body you WILL know....and it will be too late.

The criminal who goes out in a blaze of glory knowing full well that he'll be cut down in a hail of bullets effectively commits suicide by cop. For JC to accept his crucifixion was effectively to commit suicide. In Acts 2:23, however, the crucifixion is viewed as the fulfilment of the plan of god (who was in the catholic and apostolic religions a part of the trinity) so one third of the trinity was proactively plotting the demise of another third.

The problem is that the foundation of my atheist arguments is provable / acceptable by any non deist standpoint, your "argument" or "proof" of the existence and divinity of your god isn't unless you play the faith card, and the faith card usually trumps the rest. In my (and Dawkin's) world if you play the faith card you drop out of the game. Bertrand Russell's Flying Teapot argument shows the fallacy of unprovable belief.

Joan, several writers have looked at possible explanations for the alleged resurrection, but none are especially compelling. The early christians were understandably secretive and paranoid, so all we can do is conjecture. The christians and muslims accept the resurrection, the jews simply report that he was executed. Your second suggestion works best for me... he died, stayed dead, and it was in the interest of his followers to suggest he'd somehow escaped death. Despite all that modern science has to offer we still have people who say we never landed on the moon, that Elvis is alive, that bin Laden wasn't killed etc. Throw the ignorance, superstition and paranoia of Jesus' time into the mix and I dare say you're right, but unfortunately we'll never know.

Or - he was cut down from the cross while still alive and healed by his friends...........

Or, he died, stayed dead, and myths arose when folks said they'd seen him. Could happen - just ask Elvis!

I have to agree with Kiwigran sorry PoppaRob, how do you know there is nothing after death, can you prove it? Science can't!
On the other hand Christians can 'prove' that there is everlasting life because Jesus conquered death and overcame the grave, it's wonderful news.....honest