Forgiveness (christian) - is it only possible if someone says sorry or can you forgive permanently without the "sorry" first

I am trying to forgive someone fairly close to me, but I find I keep avoiding the whole situation because it hurts and upsets me so much. I can understand the reasons for the betrayal, it wasn't deliberate, but it is devastating nevertheless.

I'm finding it very difficult.

Hi kitty, something I forgot to mention is that ex-DIL is a church-going Catholic. It beggars belief that she would nip into the confession box and ask for forgiveness for her sins against her family.

Yes, I am a born pragmatist, and I have a few good outlets for my frustration, like this wonderful Gransnet. Tomorrow, I am spending the day with my best friend, whom I have known since I was 2 years old, and we will put the world back on its axis with good food, lots of laughter, and sharing of all our news. Does me good.

I feel that forgiveness is almost irrelevant in that often we just have to get on with life and, eventually, hurts and slights etc recede! Having said that, I have never had anything really major happen for which I would actually have to forgive someone. I do know that there are people who have hurt my children who I can just ignore (physically and mentally) so maybe I haven't forgiven them but life is just too short to think about them any more.

Carol what an awful situation to be in. That won't be easy to forgive. But, it seems that you are in a position where you have to be pragmatic, swear a lot and believe that what goes around, comes around. [flowers]

On the Christian question, it seems that saying one goes to church or even confesses one's sins is sometimes used as permission to continue to act in exactly the same way again and again. Forgiveness, as previously mentioned, is not a Christian monopoly.

He had a good exemplar, Joan - 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do'.
I know I could never forgive someone who murdered or raped (or even just injured) one of my family. I feel very bitter still towards the surgeon who disabled my daughter (and another dozen women).

I agree Faye, about just dismissing people who have done something offensive. I feel the same - not worth bothering giving them another thought.

I once noticed that forgiveness can be used as a weapon. I can't remember the full news story, but a bereaved Christian man whose son had been murdered, said he forgave the murderers because they were too weak and inadequate to know or understand they were doing....he went on in this way, piling insult on insult, with a sweet smile on his face.

I think it was his form of revenge.

I have tried both forgiving someone and continuing to tolerate their offensive behavior and forgiving someone and steering clear. Nowadays I don't bother to waste my energy forgiving them, I dismiss them. Dismissing someone makes you feel a whole lot better and I am not worried about forgiving and forgetting and going to heaven. Which is the only reason I can see why Christians attempt forgiveness, the rest of us can choose to do what is best for us. I just dismiss, it saves a lot of energy!

What a good day it was when I found Gransnet - you make me feel much better about myself. I have had some very kind pm's since I spoke about my daughter's problems and your advice has been so wise.

I am now all packed and ready for the first stage of my journey - from Nelson to Auckland, then on to Singapore and Phuket.
These last few weeks have been so lovely and now I am going to concentrate on seeing my friends and making new friends. I love having people to stay, so don't be surprised if you get an invitation. My flat is not large, but there is a separate double bedroom, a full-sized bathroom, and there are wonderful views from both the front and rear balconies. I might even cook for you, but haute cuisine is my daughter's department - I have had to do a lot of walking to keep my weight down in NZ!

All very interesting. A lot of you show very normal responses to hurt. I think if we are all honest, to forgive personal insult is very difficult. I think we can come to terms with it and ignore it, but is ignoring forgiveness? I think it is more amnesia. But then perhaps I have peculiar outlook on life?

I'll second that. You write a lot of sense, greatnan, and often show an admirable bravery. "Life and soul of the party" people add to life's rich tapestry.

Your posts are compulsive reading, Greatnan. That's not flattery. Your wide experience in your career and your travels, your insight into your family's issues and any topical subjects that come up make your posts most interesting and informative. Now, live for the moment. Your past is past. Enjoy the snorkelling.

Annobel - I have always considered myself to be far too conceited with over-weaning self esteem - in fact, I thought I was narcissistic. Modesty came late in life to me - I was adored by my mother and older sister and brother and had a very successful academic career. I thought I was the bee's knees!
Yes, apart from the current situation with one daughter, caused by her drug-induced paranoia, my family and friends have been very kind to me, but I think they found my big-headedness quite amusing and they don't scruple to remind me of it.
I was never happier than when being the 'life and soul of the party', hogging all the attention, dominating every conversation. Increasing deafness and living in isolation have put a stop to that, but perhaps I have just learnt that when you actually listen to other people (or read what they have to say) most of them have stories to tell which are just as fascinating as your own.

At least, on Gransnet, you don't have to read my posts!

Your last paragraph, Greatnan holds the key to self-forgiveness. You can 'easily forgive the people you love'. However, you don't think you deserve to be forgiven. Surely this means that you haven't learnt to love yourself. Yet you come across to us as someone who must be much loved by half of her family at least and who deserves the trust and loyalty of her family. Perhaps this question of self-esteem and how to love yourself is one you need to reflect on. Just a thought.

Ay, there's the rub, Zephrine
I look back on some of my own behaviour in the past and I am appalled. How could I have done that, I ask myself. I used to make excuses - I was unhappy in my marriage, etc. but now I realise I must accept responsibility for my actions, try to put right any wrongs where possible, apologise if I can, and behave better in future. But forgiving myself - no, I don't think I deserve to be forgiven.

As to continuing to forgive others when they behave badly - sometimes that would seem like condoning and accepting their behaviour.

My sister has occasionally behaved very ungraciously towards me, but I know she has had a very frustrating life, with her ex-husband being a completely selfish bar steward and three of her four sons and their wives being very unhelpful to her, so I find it easy to forgive her. We are now the best of friends - we don't talk about what has gone on in the past, as I think it embarrasses her - just once she said she felt guilty because she had behaved badly to people who didn't deserve it - I think that is as near to an apology as I am ever likely to get! I remember how kind she was to me when we were children (she is almost 4 years older than me, and was very protective).

I think this topic has crystallised my thoughts and I see I can easily forgive the people I love, but I can also bear grudges against anyone who hurts my family.

How do you forgive yourself?

A very interesting topic - and I endorse the fact that the word Christian could be seen as superfluous, unless we assume that Christian forgiveness is in some way different from other forgiveness in general.

I had a situation some years ago where people, who were being invited into my home to enjoy my freely-shared expertise in singing by being part of a singing group that I ran, began to abuse that hospitality. They formed an inner clique which destroyed the inclusive ethos and were very unpleasant to come members (even on one occasion telling another singer behind my back that they weren't good enough and should leave). In addition they were somewhat sexually incontinent and formed extra-marital relationships within the group that resulted in several broken families - not what I had in mind when I started the group!

I asked one or two to leave and closed down the group for 3 months in order to re-group with those who shared the same ethos. I was told that I should have forgiven the offending members, and my rejoinder was that I had forgiven them, as I assume they had different standards from me, but that I was very happy not to have to have dealings with them any more, especially in my own home.

I think that there is a difference between forgiving someone and continuing to tolerate their offensive behaviour. Often the latter is not appropriate.

I have a similar situation with a relative on my OH's side who cheated a family member out of a substantial sum of money, and also habitually dumps on us when there are unpleasant family duties to perform (e.g. clearing the home of a dead relative, looking after a very cantankerous old relative etc.). I forgive her - presumably she knows no better - but I steer clear of her.

I found the link to the article I mentioned:
caneweb.org/necj/pdf/Konstan382.pdf

That sort of behaviour really isn't forgivable, at least as it stands, and why should one even try? Forbearance, yes; forgiveness, no.

I was taught that god (the one I was supposed to believe in and plead for mercy from) would only forgive sins (include all deliberately hurtful behaviour in that word) when you were genuinely sorry for them. The logical progression from that (even if you don't believe in an "all merciful" god) is that ordinary mortals don't have to and shouldn't be expected to forgive things for which the perpetrators are not sorry.

But it does make sense to work around the problem and try to resolve it for one's own sake and anyone else who might be involved.

How very hard, carol!

Butternut

I think you've just described what I mean by being able to 'forbear', Carol. (I was struggling to put it into words ). Whilst not feeling malice towards another, you clearly cannot let go either, because your wish to have as much contact as possible with your grandson is paramount.

Perhaps your expression of 'rising above it' is a better, more assessable way of putting it.

It's important to stop and think about that distinction, as you say Bagitha. I think the thing that then really hurts is to discover that it really is meant to hurt and has been done with malice in mind. For example, my ex-DIL stopped my son seeing their son (my grandson) the day after she learned that my son had met someone and had started dating - he had let her know as a courtesy, unfortunately. In no way did it impinge on his relationship with his son. They had set a pattern of my grandson staying over with his dad three times a week, in his new home just 500 yards away so he could be with his son as often as possible and take him to school. The next morning, ex-DIL put a new profile picture on Facebook, showing the title of a book called 'Revenge is Sweet.' It was five months before he saw his son again (that meant I didn't see him), and after access was re-established via her solicitor (shows whose side solicitor is really on), ex-DIL withdrew contact again the week before Christmas, telling my son to send all the Christmas presents with someone else (he did).

I think that is unforgiveable behaviour. I have risen aboove it and contacted her to ask if I can see my grandson, and was able to see him for 10 minutes a few days ago, because I picked him up from school while mum was out. It took three requests before she capitulated. We have to work our way to my son being able to see him again as previously, which is what my grandson wants. I don't feel malice towards her, just want her to stop it and move on - she has a new boyfriend who is practically living in my son's house now, and spending time with grandson. She just doesn't want my son to be with anyone, and has threatened him that she will take him down and screw him into the ground.

Do you forgive continuing nasty behaviour that is designed to cause such pain? She won't stop, so it's something that is hard to let go when it's being thrown back at you again and again. I just want her in the background, not causing harm and then I can move on myself.

You could also ask yourself if what the person is doing is really hurtful or whether you have chosen to be hurt by something that was never intended to be hurtful. That's not meant as a criticism; I think we all do that to a degree and we aren't always aware of it.

I think this is all too theoretical to be of any use to you, ^Redblue*.

As this site is totally anonymous, would you find it more helpful to set out the actual situation and perhaps receive some helpful advice?

If not, don't mind me.

If the word christian is not meant to be significant, why use it?

If someone is behaving in a way that hurts you, a healthy approach is to change your behaviour towards them in order to effect a change in outcome, or to take yourself out of the hurtful orbit. When you've dealt with the hurting, you'll probably find forgiveness comes naturally.

I'm not sure about the happiness bit, as I can think of at least one person who asserts she is happy to be making another person's life miserable, but certainly not wishing them any malice and a hope that they themselves can move on from their destructive behaviour. I suppose I would wish that they learned to behave differently, and for myself would want to be indifferent to them.