Faith schools?

northerngran - a really good post. I totally agree with you.

I think it depends on our definition of the word respect. I favour the New Shorter Oxford. There are several examples of the verb and I have no problem with any of the given definitions, but in this context I'd suggest 'Refrain from injuring, harming, insulting or interfering with' fits the bill.

I think my view is, "I will tolerate your religion, I don't have to respect it."

Hi baba. Just as in all conversations there can be digressions on gransnet. Perfectly valid to say something like "can we get back to the subject" and carry on the discussion. Just like real life.
I came across a very interesting Muslim custom last week (which is a slight digression, but I don't feel like starting a new thread) - My MIL's carer, who has just the one daughter, told me for her it is not acceptable to take ANYTHING from her daughter. Other than maybe a birthday present. She said if her own mother visited her and had anything more than a glass of water she would leave some money behind. Is this universal does anyone know, or is it just an Indian thing? Does this explain why having a son is so important?

I think my stance is to say " I respect your right to hold your opinion, but I think it is completely wrong". Where I stop respecting that right is when any religion seeks to impose laws based on its own beliefs which the whole nation is bound to obey.

....and many of the laws in this country are christian based/influenced: marriage, divorce, adoption, education, drugs, abortion, contraception

Thanks for getting back to the subject. I think we grans have a great deal to offer in the way of tolerance and experience of both the good and the bad, so let's pass that all on to whomsoever will listen and help the next generations to find their personal inner strength.

baba, I have found that one of my daughters is much wiser than I am and has guided me through a very traumatic family situation. Unfortunately, age does not always bring wisdom or serenity but I agree we can certainly try to influence things for the better.

carboncareful contraception?

I know we have laws about doctors being able to prescribe contraception to under-16s in certain circumstances, but haven't come against any UK contraception laws that are founded on christian beliefs?

they were in Ireland Carol until recently

Drugs??

Some religious leaders thought it was wrong to immunise girls against the herpes virus that can lead to cervical cancer as it might encourge them to have sex. Presumably cancer is a just punishment for breaking their rules.

JessM Ireland – as in Eire – isn't part of the UK.

Greatnan More likely cancer is a just punishment for having sex whether outside or inside their rules. Sex is for woman the whore not woman the madonna.

Yes I know that absent My sister lives there and DH has an Irish passport. but it does illustrate the point that religious power can influence such legislation. Sorry if it was a distraction.
When i was 21 you had to be married to go to the FPA (or say you were engaged). I think the roots of that were religious maybe?
We are lucky in this country that contraception has not been legally forbidden (I think?)

The mother of one of my catholic pupils had fled from Ireland because the priest had told her it was her duty to accept her husband's drunken rapes and the local Guarda just laughed at her complaints.
Thousands of women 'took the boat' to get an abortion, and middle class women could get the pill if they claimed to have heavy periods.
I think it is the hypocrisy that I find so sickening

It is theoretically legal to carry out an abortion in Ireland if the woman's life at stake. Not if she is a child who has been raped for instance! Otherwise it is still essential to travel if you want one.
Divorce is also legal in theory but the legislation seems designed to make it difficult, longwinded and expensive with no benchmarks about financial settlements and no transparency about settlements that have been granted.

I know this is harsh, but I detest faith schools.

Why do they exist? Do we need to circumscribe children's education to avoid exposing them to 'unclean' practices or 'heretical' ideas? Shouldn't our children learn as much as possible about our society, its diversity, the wider world?

Why segregate children by religion? No local area can cater to all faiths and non-faiths. Why separate children this way? Why condemn some children to grow up in an official school-sanctioned minority?

It astonishes me that these faith schools still receive support from the state. Can't parents use afterschool & weekend classes to instruct their children in personal matters of their family faith?

Perhaps because I belong to a minority religion, but I can see no good in these schools, even those of my faith.

Faith schools may be excellent in many respects but they do have an unfortunate reputation for letting in children of basically non-religious parents who want a good education for their children and are prepared to attend church to get it. My daughter refused to do this, on the grounds that it was corrupt and immoral, and her son, who had been at nursery school at a faith school, had to go elsewhere when he was five. Don't like that aspect of it. Also there are other ways that faith schools select preferred pupils and recently they were criticised for excluding children who were living in care homes. Not very Christian!

I went to a convent as an infant and junior. My parents were technically c of e.
The education was excellent and the nuns lovely. I went to the friary school Lichfield as a grammar school which was high Protestant. I had more indoctrination from them than the nuns. I hated it and left after o levels and went to tech for my a levels.
State schools can be just as bigoted as faith schools. I think it is a decision for the parents to make!
If there was no demand there would be no faith schools.

You are obviously a lot younger than I am, jeni. I went to catholic junior and convent grammar schools and was constantly indoctrinated. One girl was expelled for saying she was not sure the believed in God. We were not allowed to question anything and had no education whatsoever about sex or relationships. If you wanted to do 'A' level biology, you had to go out to the local Technical College because the Irish nuns were too afraid of sex to offer it in the school.
Faith schools are over subscribed because the parents who fight to get their children into them, sometimes lying in their teeth to do it, are committed and interested. The actual religious aspect is immaterial - they are just highly socially selective.
There are very few actual 'State' primary schools - if you live in a village the local school will almost certainly be C of E or catholic. You can withdraw your child from actual RE lessons and services, but they are unlikely to be offered anything to occupy their time usefully.
Sunday schools and evening classes can be provided by the local religious community an nobody would object.
Single faith schools perpetuate divisions and exclusion.

I don't notice any clamour from middle class patents to get their children in to the RC and C of E schools on London which are predominantly between. 90% and 100% black or ethnic minority. I wonder why.

"If there was no demand there would be no faith schools"

The government ignores most parental demands. Why cater to faith schools?

I doubt a Jewish, Muslim or atheist child found the nuns at your convent school "lovely" or could freely discuss their own beliefs in those classrooms. Were there any? Did they sit outside the classroom door during RE?

So many London families are desperate for decent schools. Jut local schools. Not schools that discriminate against the non-religious and minority-religions.

To many of us, a "grammar school which was high Protestant" does sound like a faith school. I'm truly sorry it wasn't lovely like your convent school, which offered an excellent education to those lucky enough to be Christian.

I recall raising a young family in London decades ago, when we had that local choice, and families met each other which strengthed the sense of community in a very diverse area. It's sad how that's been lost.

So-called Faith Schools are State Schools. Only a tiny proportion of their funding comes from the churches (about 10% of the capital cost, or even less). The rest of the capital cost and the staff salaries are paid by taxpayers as with non-faith schools.

it's such hypocrisy to support 'faith' schools at the same time as deploring sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland and other parts of our country.