Secular pastors

Religion existed before we had the science to explain the big questions, before we had a welfare system to look after those in need, before we could question the supernatural and not suffer for it, before we had a police service to keep order in society.

There is nothing wrong with maintaining a belief in religion: there is nothing wrong with losing a belief in religion: we are all different. But the way I see it, churches were built for us all, because back then most of us were believers.

JO4 said: I can see that some churches, or a room behind the church, could be used for some kind of secular counselling service. I don't think that would be objectionable. But wouldn't the very interior of a church be abhorrent to a non-religious, or even anti-religion, person? (Thinking Crosses, Virgin Mary and Child statues, etc)

I don't think secular activities would contaminate a church in any way, and I don't think religious symbols are offensive to atheists: they are certainly not offensive to me. I think churches could and should be used for more than religion.

Fine to use a church if it is up for sale and you buy it. It would have been de-consecrated at that point.

(Elegran that is the word I was looking for )

I find the idea of "rival" rituals interesting - in our multi-cultural, multi-faith (or no faith at all) world it would be good to move on from a sense of rivalry at some point.

Having said that, I can see why some churches might be concerned as many who go to church but have doctrinal problems would have an alternative. There are many who go to church but find that they cannot in all honesty say the creed with any integrity as there is so much of it that they cannot subscribe to. I know many in this boat.

Our local Knights Templar church had pagan origins - there are symbols etched in the stonework all around.

Wouldn't it be good to see a coming-together of those of faith and those of none to share their community festivals and enjoy each others' company with no sense that one or the other has a monopoly on the truth? It is just people that matter.

One of the god-attributed statements is "Thou shalt have no other God besides me" and there was a big stushy when Moses returned from a meeting with head office up on the mountain to find the Israelites bust worshipping a golden calf.

So while ecumenisn is preached and co-operation with other faiths/none on welfare issues is encouraged, I can't see any major religion welcoming a group into their consecrated building who are actively supporting another kind of worship there.

Busy worshipping. Not sure how one performs bust worship, in a religious sense.

Performing, not supporting. I should read my posts more carefully before I send them.

Made me laugh, anyway, Elegran!

Your local church sounds fantastic Mishap!

I think the coming together for enjoyment happens already. At my daughter's church (she is a 'church elder' - how daft is that! She's my little girl!) they have events such as Christmas/Summer fairs, harvest suppers, etc. when most of the local community seem to visit and enjoy themselves.

elegranwhen I first read that I thought of a nicely shaped lower leg!

I think you may be wanting to start a new religion. Nothing wrong with that, but if it's ritual you hanker for, there's lots already around!

I always worry about new Christian 'churches' that pop up all over the place..usually evangelical and led by a fairly charismatic man. My cynical view is that it is all about power and control and not about genuine spirituality.

I think I should point out that atheism is not a belief system: it is simply non-belief. Therefore if atheists met in church space, they would not be manifesting a different or contrary belief. There would be no rival god or idol or anything. There would be no rival ritual as they have none.

I got the impression that ritual (and pastoral care) was exactly the kind of thing that people felt a secular ministry could provide. Spirituality without religion - or religion without a god. Being an atheist or an agnostic doesn't necessarily mean not wanting ritual. I've been to a number of non- religious funerals and it's clear that they follow a meaningful pattern - same with secular weddings. To say nothing of the secular rituals already attached to these important life events, religious or not; naming ceremonies, divorce celebrations, birthday parties. Apparently we need ritual and if we don't want the trappings of religion, we find some other form of recognised and familiar behaviour to attach to whatever it is.

Agree lilygran

Lilygran - exactly what I was going to say - but you beat me to it!!

Oh dear - regarding ritual, I guess I was thinking of prayers and hymns and holy communion when I talked of ritual.

The ritual of welcoming a baby into the world, sanctioning a marriage, and giving a good sent-off for the deceased is a good thing of course.