And while we're on the subject

Does it matter if Jesus was married?

Wasn't that in The Da Vinci Code? We all know that it was based on sound factual information, don't we?

granny23 Hear hear! I like what you are saying too.

I saw that report yesterday, and today it is claimed that the papyrus is fake. Let's see what tomorrow brings

Granny23 Brilliantly put! I totally agree with you.

As an aside, I notice that no one has mentioned the report in the press that 'Jesus was married!!'

Hear, Hear Granny23

I do like that post, Granny23!

One of my main objections to organised religion is the emphasis on 'getting right with God' rather than on 'doing God's work'. Endless hours, sometimes whole lifetimes, are spent in prayer, worship, study and debate. Resources are used eg to build great mosques, cathedrals to the Glory of God rather than devoting the time, money and effort towards building something useful to mankind. As a teenager, I rejected organised religion as being a waste of my time, made a big public statement to our new minister that I felt it was much more useful to be helping to run the Youth Club than to spend my evenings in his Bible Study Group.

A few years later I came to the conclusion that there was no God and even if there were he was literally 'not worth the candle'. My earthly Father would have given his life or moved heaven and earth for his daughters (and his many friends) whereas the so-called all powerful God did nothing to help at all.

I have really not thought deeply about these matters - just got on with my life, trying to do some good and no evil, until the threads here have prompted me to read up on atheism, humanism, agnosticism, secularism. This study has brought me back to my starting point - the waste of Endless hours, sometimes whole lifetimes, are spent in prayer, worship, study and debate. The range of isms that have been discussed on these thresd and I have been reading about, bear a remarkable similarity to the religions which they purport to disdain. Same holy men (Dawkinsism anyone?) holy books (required reading for adherents to any of the isms), same schisms between different factions, same claims that this that or the other belief system is correct.

I understand that some? many? people have a need to belong (cf Claire Rayner saying she felt a sense of 'coming home' when she joined the Humanist Society) but I am so disappointed that the mass rejection of religion currently taking place appears to be leading to the formation of formal groupings and sub groupings, based on narrow definitions. Personally, I feel no need to attach a label to myself, or align with any group. I do not need any 'great thinker' to instruct me in how to think for myself - I consider myself to be the expert in matters pertaining to my own thoughts, values, decisions. Thus I have no one else to blame, but also no one else to answer to. I find I am quite a hard taskmaster, but only for myself, I will forgive others almost everything.

Here endeth my sermon!! I feel I have wasted enough of my energies in pursuing this topic for the time being and have a backlog of other things to think about .

Atheism is, perfectly simply, lack of belief in gods.

Opposite of theism.

The negative part is the lack of, so it's purely a descriptive negative. Doesn't bother me.

If people read in unpleasant connotations of their own because they fear a lack of gods, that's their problem, not mine. The word, and its meaning, are perfectly clear and perfectly simple.

My sentiments entirely - I met some lovely people at the Wirral Humanist Group. We had a meeting with our then MP, David (now Lord) Hunt , to object to our children being left with no teaching in a separate room if we withdrew them from RE. He told us we could not possibly be giving our children good morals if we were not Christians. He was so stupid, it was really quite amusing.

All I mean by 'negative connotations' is that by describing yourself as 'atheist' you are saying what you don't believe. 'Agnostic' means you are sitting on the fence.
Roughly speaking, the word 'humanist' has come to mean someone who:

trusts to the scientific method when it comes to understanding how the universe works and rejects the idea of the supernatural (and is therefore an atheist or agnostic)

makes their ethical decisions based on reason, empathy, and a concern for human beings and other sentient animals

believes that, in the absence of an afterlife and any discernible purpose to the universe, human beings can act to give their own lives meaning by seeking happiness in this life and helping others to do the same.

(plagiarised from www.humanism.org.uk/humanism)

As I have said before, humanists are atheists; not all atheists are humanists. Stalin, for example, could hardly be called humanist and the atheism of his system was cold, hard, inhumane.

I don't think there is anything negative about the word atheist, quite the contrary in fact. I've heard people say that they're not sure about whether they believe in god, that perhaps they are more 'spiritual' than religious, whereas I'm able to be very clear in saying that I am an atheist. I don't think it requires any explanation.

It doesn't have any negative connotations for me. It just means I don't believe in any gods. Nothing emotional about it.

What are the negative connotations of atheist? I suppose the word does have a cold unspiritual feel about it.

But agnostic doesn't seem quite right either.

And, I would add that many who could be called idealists are also humanists.

johanna, I prefer to call myself a humanist for that reason. I do think 'atheist' has negative connotations.

No, johanna the belief is just absent.

Just a thought.
Should atheists be called realists?
Because, maybe atheism has a negative connotation?

Yes sorry, wrong wording should have said "are" atheists.

I have found these posts interesting. I imagine lots of people have been quiet because they are not really sure what they believe or lean towards spirituality rather than religion or atheism. I do feel sorry for people who have to live their lives pretending to believe in a religion they don't find any truth in. Who really knows, no one is the expert.

BaNana - I don't 'wish' to be an atheist - I just am!
I think Bags, myself, and many others have said repeatedly that we do not want to interfere with anybody's right to hold any beliefs they want and practise any religion they want, so long as they do not try to impose those beliefs on us, or they are not harmful to others.
Comments suggesting that atheists are less moral, kind or charitable than believers are so obviously ridiculous that they hardly warrant a response.
There are as many differences in the personalities of atheists as there are in any large group of people. The only thing we all have in common is our lack of belief in any supernatural being.
I don't think people in general, including the atheists I know, hold anything against individual Catholics unless they have been proved to be abusers, etc.
My hostility is towards the organisation and those at the top of it who have failed to protect the vulnerable.

I'll say it again because the confusion appears to persist: respecting people and accepting that they can hold any beliefs they like, is not the same as respecting beliefs. I respect Mormons as people just as much as I respect anyone else. I do not respect Mormon beliefs just as much as I respect some other beliefs. I respect the Mormons' right to choose to hold certain beliefs; I do not respect the beliefs. I respect the Mormons' right to talk about their beliefs; I even respect their 'right' to go on missions with the purpose of spreading their beliefs, even though I think religious missions are immoral. I still don't respect the beliefs because I think the beliefs are idiotic.

I respect the people who lived on the islands of St Kilda. I don't respect their belief that pouring milk onto a stone would keep their cows healthy.

I respect Anders Breivik's right to a fair trial in Norway, and I respect his right to humane treatment while in jail. I do not respect the beliefs he has which made him act the way he did.

Why don't people understand the difference? It is not beliefs that we should respect, but people.

You can't assume that active Gnetters are"anything" just from reading posts. There may be many reasons for not responding and people can feel just as strongly either way but decide to "let it go". As with any sort of survey, statstical results can be very misleading. For instance the report recently that "where 30 mph speed limts had been reduced to 20 mph, there had been a 50% increase in accidents". True - but only because whereas in the previous year there had been twofatalities, in the following year there were three . So while the figures may be accurate, there is a lot more information which is relevant before you can draw conclusions.

I completely understand why some people wish to be atheists and I do think Richard Dawkins put forward a powerful argument in the God Delusion. However, I've decided I'm still a believer although I don't practice. Catholics get a very bad press, which I know they deserve on many counts, but I know my mother found her religion a great comfort to her in the last few years of her life and she had a lot of support from her church, I think unfortunately everyone has decided that all priests are a bad lot and in some ways I feel sorry for those trying to do a good job. I also understand why some Christians feel what they believe is often derided and possibly frowned upon, why is it so wrong to wear a cross and chain to work for heaven sake and how did we ever arrive at this ridiculous state we appear to be at where in a supposedly Christian country some Christians feel marginalised for their beliefs. When I was growing up one of the things I hated the most about the Catholic church was the way it foisted it's doctrines on people who subscribed to different faiths such as Jews and Muslims during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. I find it quite alarming now that hardline Muslims wish to do this around the world, it's like being dragged back to the Middle Ages. Equally, the Christian right in America come across as a damn scary lot. I don't care what people believe or not believe, just don't be too evangelical about it either way.

What I was trying to say, and probably making a pigs ear of it, is that I don't mind if someone tells me they don't believe in God, I don 't mind if they question me on why I believe. I can even accept jokes about my beliefs - I have a friend who refers to God as my invisible friend!

As for the beliefs of people like the Mormons, whilst I may disagree with them, I can still respect their deeply held beliefs.

As for the Islamist bombers, their beliefs are a corruption of true Islamic beliefs. I have spoken to Muslims who tell me that nowhere in their holy teachings is it stated that they should go out and kill non believers. Many of their beliefs are similar to Christianity, for example they believe Jesus was a real person the difference is they do not believe he was the Son of God, but a was a prophet.