YES! We are a nation of secularists

@whenim64 "We are a secular society, and the sooner we become a republic, the better."

Oh right - that'll do it </sarcasm>

Great idea - saddle ourselves with some lousy politician as pres every so often. We tried being a republic anyway, back in the days of Oliver "Bowels of Christ" Cromwell, and I don't think we liked it much. So we re-instituted a monarchy with Charles II, and that has served us well enough ever since.

Don't forget 'Rev'.

Feetle yes, indeedy. We've already had the Revolution and the republic. And don't forget James 11.

Golly, when! So right! You know, the thought of a god presence never enters my mind when I visit an old church to admire its architecture, or wonder about the history of the parish its in. And you know what else, that thought has only just occurred to me – that I associate religious buildings with people, not gods. I think that means I prefer real people, even dead ones, to imaginary friends.

Erm, Cromwell was a puritan. He was revolting against the catholicism of the Stuarts and their belief in the divine right of kings, not the monarchy as such. Charles wanted to tax people to fund a war without the support of parliament. Cromwell was a parliamentarian who believed in no taxation without representation. Good for him. However, many of the excesses of the Cromwellians stemmed from their puritanism and their dislike of catholicism.

It should be possible to disestablish the church without, necessarily, getting rid of the monarchy.

So, churches don't profiteer, eh? Here's one that does and Spain is going to try and do something about it so that ordinary people get the benefit of that historic and current profiteering.

"At a time when Spain is seeing unprecedented increases in all manner of taxes, it is hardly surprising that the treasury is examining the possibility of finding new revenue streams to generated some much-needed income for the state.

An agreement between the Spanish Government and the Vatican dating back to 1979 allowed Church property to go untaxed - even though much of it was rented out by the Catholic church for commercial or non-religious purposes.

The Catholic Church remains one of the largest owners of land and property in Spain - owning hundreds of schools, and public buildings in addition to various places of worship but is is their previously untaxed commercial assets that the treasury is sizing up.

It is estimated that the properties in Spain that the Church makes a direct profit from could net the country some 3 Billion Euros per year in taxes.

Although Tumbit applauds the move we have to ask Why now ? - Why only resort to this measure after every conceivable pension or benefit has been slashed to the bone, why when education and healthcare has been cut to dangerous levels, why when property repossessions have fallen to their lowest levels in recent years, and unemployment figures to their highest - why only decide NOW to tax the commercial assets of the richest landowners in Spain ?"

bit.ly/UTbfqv

Bags When visiting some of the most beautiful church buildings, such as Durham Cathedral (one of my great favourites), I don't think god crosses my mind but I do experience a tremendous sense of awe and a strong feeling of how piddly my life and concerns are in the general scheme of things.

However, when visiting St Peter's in Rome, I am not struck with awe, in spite of the architecture, but constantly reminded of men and popes. Thoughts of god or any feelings of spirituality go right out the window.

I don't like St. Peter's either, it's too ornate. But the church of the ahold Sepulchre is very plain.

Should be Holy Sepulchre! No miracle has occurred to cure my typing!

I'll third that, I don't like St Peter's in Rome either. Sometimes in Catholic southern Europe the churches seem to me to be more about the worship of gold rather than God!

I hope we don't get any more comments of the 'some people are unpleasant' type -we had a spate of insults some months ago which did much to damage the forum. We are entitled to express our opinion without being told we are unpleasant.

Strangely enough, nobody has replied to my question. If you are a Christian who only attends Church for weddings and funerals, and maybe Christmas for the sing-song - would you continue to put yourself down on official forms as, say CofE or Catholic, if it automatically meant a percentage like 3 to 5 % of total taxes was paid to said Church?

Personally I am totally against Sunday shopping - and 24hr shopping + opening on Christmas Eve till fairly late and again early on Boxing day. What sort of family life do people have if they never have time together to be a family? I knew several people who worked for Tesco 24hr near us. At first they had a choice about working nights and week-ends - but then they didn't have enough staff volunteering for those hours, and they got a letter saying the choice would no longer exist and all staff would have to share 'unsocial' hours. They were NOT happy. Was also amazed, on the odd times when we did pop in very late on return from a trip, etc - to find families walking around with toddlers, babies, and children of all ages - some of them obviously of school-age, week days?!?

Where I live the Unions have been fighting late night and week-end shopping - not on a religious basis, but so that families do have time to spend together - enjoy sport, culture, etc, etc. And long may it last.

Granjura yes, I would!

One of the abiding advantages of a secular society is that the right to practise a religion is guaranteed equally with the right to ignore religion.

So the religious have protection (although not from criticism) as does everybody else. Sounds fair to me.

Exactly, feetlebaum!

Good blog entry about it here.

What a brilliant blog, Bags - I have put it on my Favourites list and I will use it whenever we have yet another accusation of being 'aggressive' or 'militant' just for stating that state and church should be totally separate.

Quotes of the week published on the National Secular Society's newsletter:

"To ensure the future of secularism and its "virtues of moderation and tolerance," millions more Americans must declare themselves secularists, including followers of liberal faiths and religious minorities."
(Kirkus Review of Jacques Berlinerblau's book How to be Secular)

"Are we really going to hold what we can say or do in our own country hostage to the passions of foreign lynch mobs?"
(Jonah Goldberg, New York Post)

"Religious bigots come in many different shapes and forms — depending on whose divine authority they presume to possess — but a common ideology that binds them across the world is  stupidity."
(Amish Raj Mulmi, The Kathmandu Post)

"Perhaps this swing away from reason will last a few generations. Perhaps, in a few generations, it will swing back. Until it does, if it does, those of us who believe in the right to say what you think without being threatened, can only show that there are some beliefs that we cherish, too. We can show that we believe in the right of clever writers to write good books, and the right of stupid fantasists to make bad films."
(Christina Patterson, Independent)

Thanks for the blog link Bags. I particularly enjoyed 'The Madness of Christina Odone' and 'Im sick of it'.

Thanks for introducing me to that blog, Bags.

You're welcome, folks. It was new to me too. Isn't it good though?

I am a church goer but also a believer. I have spoken to many people about how they feel and most want the church to continue to be part of the community, however hypocritical their members may appear to be. Gone are the days when people were forced to attend. Also many church people, clergy & laity alike are broad-minded & often controversial. It is good to have as much support as possible in life, the community of the church is one of them for many people so don't knock it too much.

Granisuz - which church do you think somebody is knocking? I can't speak for other members, but I am extremely opposed to the catholic church because of its record on covering up child abuse and banning contraception, which would save so many lives in Africa and Asia. The Church of England is also not completely without sin in the realm of child abuse, sending children from its care to be abused in Australia, etc. I am opposed to any religion which does not treat women as full human beings, or allows forced marriages, honour killings and female genital mutilation. I have no hostility whatsover towards churches that just get on with their own worship and provide some comfort or company for people who need it.

I am bitterly opposed to any interaction between any church and the state when it comes to legislation.

I hope you will agree that I am entitled to state these views without being accused of 'knocking' some church without justification.

Love those blogs bags. I'll go back to that one!

I understand your feelings, granisuz. I am not now a believer, but I was brought up in the Church of Scotland and I still have a certain affection for it - as an adult child would have for a parent that she has grown away from. When visiting a friend in Scotland I sometimes go to a service with her and slip into and easy familiarity. I wouldn't tar all churches with the same brush with which I'd mark the Church of Rome in all its grubby glory.