YES! We are a nation of secularists

I enjoyed reading the blog link baggy I have signed up to receive more, thanks.

Doesn't bother me if people knock atheism. Atheism can take it. And argue back.

An evangelical sect in London is now persuading HIV sufferers to stop taking the drugs that can keep them alive, as they will be cured by prayer. How can people be so gullible?
On the other hand, I have read that JWs and others who refuse to use other people's blood during heart surgery actually have an improved chance of recovery! I don't think it is divine intervention, but it obviously merits a lot of research to find out why using your own blood in operations can be helpful.

So they do use blood transfusions? But only their own blood? Which means they need a kind of blood "insurance" and have to keep paying in donations in case they need it some time? I guess you'd have to be regular with your donations cos I don't suppose blood lasts forever, even frozen, or however it is stored in blood banks.

Well, if this is the case, it's an improvement in their thinking. Science is WINNING!

According to the articles I have read, the blood is collected and recycled during the operation, but I think some people do also build up a blood bank when they know they are going to need surgery.

Here's an interesting slant on the assertion that Catholic schools help their pupils' 'spiritual development' (whatever that means!) I looked up the House of Commons Library report on prison population in 2012, which is broken down by nationality, age, sex, and stated religion. Catholic prisoners are disproportionately represented, and the same is true in the USA. So, something goes wrong with their spiritual development after they leave school!
Catholic schools have good academic results because they are extremely selective - the type of parent who will buy a house in the catchment area just to get their children into the school of their choice is likely to be very involved in their education, and will ensure that they have time and help to do their homework, have all the right equipment, etc.

I think we already had the debate about what religious affiliation in prison means.

Lilygran Just because we have had a debate on a subject doesn't mean it won't crop up again. There have been several topics that have been vigourously debated a number of times in the last 16 months – not always by the same people.

Besides, there is a difference between an already existing religious affiliation and conversion within prison.

And clearly that subject is done and dusted and there is NOTHING more to say about it [sarc emoticon]

I suspect that those JWs who yield to persuasion to have a blood transfusion are either a) so ill that they would not have been saved anyway or b) so racked with guilt about it that their recovery is inhibited. I know a few JWs and "abstaining from blood" is one of their rules. No use pointing out that it was blood sacrifices that were forbidden. A rule is a rule.

I will also say, as I am on the subject, that those JWs are universally good kind people who look out for their neighbours, whether or not the neighbours are believers. I just avoid any mention of religion (and monkeys) when in their company.

I think there was a law made a while ago which said JWs couldn't refuse permission for their children to have essential operations if the medics on the case said the treatment should go ahead, or at least that medics didn't need parental permission. That seems sensible to me. As for JW adults having operations where they need additional blood, I would have thought that they would rather die. After all, isn't the next life supposed to be what it's all about really?

I'm not scoffing at that belief, by the way, just wondering why any 'fully paid up' JW would want to go through with surgery. It would be fine by me for them to choose to die from their illness, if that's what they want. I suppose problems arise when they have other people to consider, such as children. Dead parents aren't much use.

elegran, I'm sure what you say about their kindness is true, and that is to be valued. I also have deep respect for many Quaker attitudes.

Hello everyone! Only joined Gransnet yesterday & I seemed to have created a storm already - sorry - not accusing anyone - just making comments. I agree with you Greatnan that the Church as a whole (I am Anglican) does seem to cover up stuff it shouldn't, especially the Catholic Church. That is wrong. However, it shouldn't mean that all church members or clergy are the same. My mother & I went to Malta a few years ago (in the 90's when my father was ill & couldn't go). We went to a church in Valetta so we could sit & pray & we were told to leave as their was a service starting. I felt sad that they couldn't make us welcome. Nothing like that ever happens here - noone is turfed out or told to go. My husband has always said (typical man) that religion, politics & money should never be talked about because noone will ever agree! I think he may be right....

Granisuz- unless you have trawled through every thread on religion you probably won't know that the atheists here never criticise individual believers. We just don't believe in any god and we are mostly opposed to organised religion because of the damage we believe it has done, and is doing, throughout the world. We also believe that religion should be kept out of state politics.

I am afraid I cannot agree that all JWs are nice people - my sister's friend decided to leave the fellowship and she was vilified and her family were ordered to break off all contact with her. I believe Plymouth Brethren behave the same way.

JWs were extraordinarily brave in German death camps - they were targeted by the Nazis but helped many other prisoners. I like to give praise when it is due.

Don't worry about it, granisuz. We've survived worse stroms storms (actually, I prefer stroms).

Gransnet would be boring if we all agreed. And that would never do

We? There's some kind of atheist creed? I thought you were all free thinkers!

Oh, dear, Lily,no nit-picking please. I based my remarks on my knowledge of the consensus that has arisen over the months. No doubt any atheist who wishes to be disassociated from my remarks will speak up.

bags you should be enjoying this weather then!

GNHQ. WHERE'S THE CRESCENT MOON?

I'm with you B on a deeply held respect for Quaker values: simplicity, honesty, integrity, tolerance, compassion.
Good strong views to hold - just wish they'd take the whole God and Inner Light thing out of it all.

Quakers have no creed, nor do atheists.

And they did make good chocolate.

And porridge.

Quakers – they paid for good hospitals, banks, care homes, schools, and railways. Hugely successful businessmen, but also massive philanthropists. I live in Darlington– the Quaker town. I love and value it.

Thank you Bags for your encouraging comments.

Quakers were good educators too: when I was at Heckmondwike grammar school the headmaster was a Quaker, and the school was excellent - way ahead of its time in many aspects. My younger sister is totally blind, and when she flatly refused to go back to the posh boarding school for blind girls (she had a scholarship from age 11) after her O levels, I told Mum to see my former headmaster. Mum thought I was mad, but she went anyway, and he accepted her for the 6th form. It was totally new back then (1969) to have handicapped children in mainstream schools: I guess he and my sister were trailblazers. She achieved success and went on to Manchester University where she met her husband. All because a Quaker Headmaster decided to take a risk.

I just had a thought about 'nation of secularists'. Having been born in 1945, I grew up when religion was mainstream, and even the children of agnostics and atheists, like I was, often went to Sunday School.

But it is no longer mainstream - in fact, when you think about it, it is something practiced by consenting adults in private!! Having religious beliefs is something you would not talk about at work, at the gym, at the pub....unless you want to embarrass, confuse, or alienate people.

I walk away politely and quietly if anyone tries to talk about God stuff to me when I'm out: it is simply not on, these days. And even back then - I know my Quaker headmaster never talked religion to any of us, unless he got roped in to fill in for RE classes.

I like it the way it is now. But, daft as a brush, I love those old churches with wonderful architecture, colourful and interesting windows, and a huge sense of history.

There is a book out that I think has a very interesting title; "I Don`t Have Enough Faith To Be And Atheist"