Business leaders turn to church for advice

Yes, Absent. Along with other Christian business magnates Quakers pioneered fair treatment of the labour force and were able to use their money, power and influence to shift social and political attitudes. Bags not sure what Romney's got to do with small scale communism

absent, life's too short but I'll take your word for it!

It works in big communities too. Romney got rich by avoiding paying taxes. I'm sure he can find a way of justifying that.

Might even work in larger ones if someone tried.

That's true. And it can still work in small communities.

Lilygran Many Quaker families were, indeed, in the forefront of the Industrial Revolution and also responsible for the development of the railways, making very sizeable fortunes. In return, they built hospitals, schools and other charitable institutions, as well as serving on civic commitees and even becoming MPs.

annodominini Count up the number of times St Paul demands money in his epistles.

In the Acts of the Apostles, I seem to remember, 'they had all things common'. How very far removed from the churches as they have existed for at least a millennium. Early Christianity was, evidently, not far removed from Marxism.

Just for the record - I don't launch personal attacks on other members - I am happy to debate with people of opposing views.

Like that, Feetlebaum . Thanks for the further explanation, Glitabo. Greatnan the Quakers also own property. Our local Society lets rooms in its very nice city centre Meeting House at an economic rent. Quaker families were in the forefront of developing new industries during the Industrial Revolution and made huge fortunes as a result. There is always going to be a tension between keeping the show on the road and following Christ's example. Martha and Mary - someone with resources fed and housed the disciples while others gave up everything to follow.

I have never seen or read, or had any wish to see or read, The Godfather.

It all sounded thoroughly unpleasant - and so unlike the home life of our own dear Queen...

Lilygran I don't think your posts are more controversial than those with anti -religion views.
We would not be able to have a debate if we all thought the same.
For the record, my religious history is chequered. I was the daughter of a Welsh methodist lay preacher. I married an Irish catholic.
In one school I was head of RE. I have taught in a RC school and I taught the catechism to RC children attending Protestant schools.
What I have learnt is there is no difference in attitudes between RC, Methodist, C of E, e.t.c. There are people in all faiths who are sincere and some you use the system to their own advantage. Unfortunately it is very often the latter who are in powerful positions.
Again for the record - I now have no religious faith, but I can empathise with those who do and would not wish to make personal attacks.

Whatever the intentions of the founders of religions (Ron L. Hubbard etc. excepted) I do think that many leaders of religions today are interested in amassing power, if not money, for themselves. This is certainly true in the USA, where several tele-evangelists have been shown to be con men.
The present Christian churches, with a few honourable exceptions such as Quakers, are so far removed from the poverty and simplicity of Jesus's life that it is hard reconcile their riches with his teachings.

If anyone wants to refute any of the facts I quote about various religions, they are free to do so - I am sure my research is not always totally accurate.
Nobody has ever said that ALL religious believers are evil as this would be an incredibly stupid remark

I know there are those of you who believe, contrary to any evidence, that the purpose of religion is to amass great wealth and power. In the case of Latin America, it wasn't the Church that assassinated Archbishop Romero. I know that there are Gransnetters who, because of their own bad experiences or perceptions extend these to the entire church (or whatever). However, there are many people who do not share these views. Among them is a large group of eminent businessmen who think they can learn something from the Roman Church about business values and ethics - not about acquiring wealth. I do not think the messages I have been posting are any more, or less, controversial than those with anti-religion, anti-church themes which are what first caught my attention on Gransnet. Unless someone out there thinks that pro-religion comments are intrinsically controversial?

Nelliemoser The posters whose names are in blue have a profile. Click on a blue name to read what the poster has to say about herself or himself and family, look at their photographs etc. I used to have one but decided that it made me sound so boring, it was better deleted. Also, as I look like a man in drag with a face like a horse in photographs, I avoid cameras whenever possible. If oyu weant to set up a profile, go to My Gransnet.

Totally out of context to the discussion. I have just noticed that all the names on the posts here are in blue apart from mine and absentgranas. Does this mean anything? Ooh I am observant this morning!

On the contrary – this is all perfectly in accord with biblical teaching. Render unto Caesar etc. What exactly is wealth creation? Is making grotesque sums of money for some individuals (directors and shareholders) – which, after all, is what successful businesses do – noble? What a strange word to choose.

Just to add to the confusion, I have been posting on 2 threads at the same time, so my last post on this thread crosses over with the one about about the initiation ceremony in the Polish school.

mea culpa

I still think he's having a laugh...

I think, in this thread, I have made more adverse comments about the Catholic Church than Greatnan has done. I used to teach in a catholic school and, as I said in my post, my 2DSs went to a very good catholic school in England. This does not prevent me from commenting on the obscene amount of wealth accumulated by the Catholic Church while some parishioners live in abject poverty, take Latin South American Countries for example. I also believe that the Church of England, The Mormons and most other sects you can mention has also accrued vast wealth.
My cynicism stems from the fact that the church can give help and direction about acquiring revenue, but I do not see much evidence of this being distributed throughout the masses (no pun intended).
For this country to prosper the workforce needs to be empowered. In my experience the ethos of any religious group is to subject rather than empower.
I am sorry if this post upsets anyone. My intention is to be honest and realistic as I see it and have experienced it.

Snap, Lily - your own posts are hardly a surprise to us. I have said what I think and now I will leave you to continue posting controversial subjects to your heart's content.

Thanks, Greatnan, true to form. Church people have done really bad things over the years. Some of those you mention happened in a different age, - sending orphans and children in care was intended as a way of populating 'the colonies' and providing the children with a means of making their own way in the world. Sometimes it went dreadfully wrong. Some happened more recently - the Roberto Calvi scandal, for example. I'm no apologist for the Church of Rome but although I accept some of its members have failed to live up to its values, it is not the sole source of wickedness in the world. And a large number of eminent businessmen think it has something to offer in terms of clarifying their values. You don't like Catholic schools. Ofsted thinks differently. Catholic schools in general get very high marks for the excellence of their values and their care for the spiritual development of the pupils in their charge.

I must admit that was my reaction, too!

Hasn't everyone?

Has anyone read The Godfather or seen the film?

Perhaps It was God who took vengeance on him.