Hypocrite?

Surely no-one can think that offering someone a book, to read or not as they wish, is 'imposing' religion on them?

When it comes wrap up as charity - yes, I do think that.

I'm with Lilygran here - there is no compulsion to read or even keep the Bible.

It is like a signature - it says "We are sending you these things, and we are Christians" Those who sent them are not ashamed to admit their faith (why should they be?) If the recipient decides that Christians are good people to send them gifts - fine. If they just want to use the gifts and benefit from them - fine too.

If Medecins Sans Frontieres heal people they do not pretend that they are not who they are.

If people who bring bibles over certain borders would be liable to persecution, is it not possible that the recipients of these books would find themselves in trouble with the authorities for possessing one?

I think it would have been better to leave the bibles out. Just say somewhere that it was from a Christian organization.

Mishap Tooth rot!

For the record, the charity paid for carers to accompany disabled, ill and, indeed, terminally ill believers to visit a shrine (Lourdes) that suggests, with their sufficient faith, it can cure them. I see this as a terrible and painful deception of the sick and disabled and it is not improved with all the souvenir tat on display for people to buy.

However, my affection for my host persuaded me that this was not about me, but about him. I did want to give him a present, although he wasn't asking for one, and this was the present he truly wanted. So, I screwed my notes tightly together in a spiral of confusion (what I would have spent on an object wrapped in jolly paper) and put them in the basket.

He has no idea how I agonised over something so silly or that I put a gift in the basket. Mr absent didn't realise anything about all this apart from the odd hissed whisper that he missed until I explained what I was posting on Gransnet today.

I could not have given to that.

I suppose it would be allright to use the bibles to light fires, then? And people who did so wouldn't be arrested for blasphemy. Not such a far fetched idea, given recent news in Pakistan. But if people get persecuted for being christians in some of these countries where the boxes go, I agree that planting a bible on someone might not be the kindest thing to do. Still, at least the boxes tend to contain useful things like toothbrushes. I know this because DD's primary school supports the shoe box charity.

absent I don't know which charity your relative supports, but I strongly suspect that it was HCPT - and if so I hope I can put your mind at rest regarding the use to which your money was put. A very good friend of mind has been a volunteer for this charity for many years. Every Easter he accompanies (at his own expense) children with disabilities to Lourdes and cares for one of them on a one-to-one basis; or if the child's disability is very great they have a two (adults) -to-one (child) ratio. My friend is an atheist, as are many other volunteers, but he regards this trip as the most worthwhile thing he does. He used his own recent 60th birthday as an HCPT fundraiser to pay for more children to go on the holiday.
It is actually an amazing respite service which gives children and their families a well deserved break. Check out this parent's story: here

Couldn't they find somewhere more cheery to take the kids to?

Well - I do think it is imposing religion on people. Far better to have offered a children's book that they might enjoy.

I gave because I wanted to help the individuals - not because I wanted to slip in a message about any particular religion.

What if they had slipped in the book of mormon or some other freaky sect? - is that OK too? Or is it only OK if it is the religion you subscribe to?

OK - they need not read it if they do not want to (or are unable to) but it uses up valuable space that could have been devoted to something useful. It is a subliminal message - accept my gift and I will tell you what I believe - makes me shudder. Far better just to give the gift with an open heart.

The days of missionaries imposing their views on cultures with their own beliefs that serve them well should be over.

It isn't possible to get this across to determined non-believers, but people who are members of a faith community really believe that offering others the opportunity of learning about that faith is a good gift. People who act as escorts to invalids going to Lourdes do so because they know so many people benefit from it. There are very, very few cures claimed or recorded but many testimonies to the other good outcomes.

Lily , how would you feel if a Muslim or Jew, or any one of the other hundreds of religions in the world 'offered you the gift' of their belief? Why are you so sure that you are right and they are all wrong? Don't you feel it is arrogant to try to sell your beliefs to others?
And we are not 'determined' atheists - we just don't believe in any god - it seems quite hard to get that message across!

I still think it would be better to just mention the box was from a Christian community, and let them find out more if they wanted to.

I do not believe the majority of people going to Lourdes do so without hoping for a cure.

It would be leading children and young people up the garden path.

It's the history of Lourdes, isn't it?! You know, the story behind it.

There is nothing 'determined' about my atheism , I don't have to 'try' not to believe, I just don't.

Me neither. I save my determination for other things. Just AM atheist.

Same here. I actually tried very hard to be a believer but it didn't work. You can't make yourself believe something that doesn't make any sense to you.

Yes, I do understand that missionary types think telling others about their faith is a good thing. What I don't understand is why they think that.

It must be for the same reason that some people tell others that they are atheists and explain the reasons why.

I have tried in the past to believe in a 'higher power' or a god or something to help in times of trouble. It is simply impossible. I've attended churches of different faiths, read about religion, talked to religious people, tried to pray - nothing worked. I eventually came to the understanding that I could no more believe in god than I could the tooth fairy. I'm happy and at peace with my non- belief and never try to convince anyone that their beliefs are wrong - they are just not my beliefs.

Elf, I only mention my atheism when a religious argument for something is put up (e.g. here on gransnet) or when I feel discriminated against (e.g. by the Scout Association). I'd never put an atheist 'bible' (not that there is one anyway) into a gift for a child.

To answer the original post, I would probably have just given to another charity.

Bags, when I said 'some people' above, why did you assume I was referring to you?!

I didn't, elf. I just gave 'my' reply to your post. I understand that you could be referring to any or all gransnetters. I'm one of them. We can only give our own take on a subject. I hoped, with my reply, to add something useful to the discussion about understanding why some people feel the need to spread the word about their faith. I don't feel that need but I do enjoy philosophical discussions about beliefs, and what makes people 'tick', with all sorts of people, and I do, of course, feel the need to argue against discrimination where I think it occurs.

Gransnet is a discussion forum. Anyone can reply to any post without that meaning anything other that they "had something to say".

Besides, your comment that I replied to seemed to be related to one I'd posted not long previously .

Like many of the Christians I know, I'm very happy to talk about religion with members of any faiths. I have attended lectures by members of other faiths and I read widely on a number of religions. This kind of formal and informal inter-faith dialogue is intended to, and does, increase understanding and improves relationships. Does atheism?

Yes.