Christian Grans

In answer to lily's post at 19.05 where she says that she feels faith is being 'got at', I can suggest a way to prevent that – don't publish what your faith is about on a public forum. That's not to say I don't want you, or others, to do so, but if you do, you must expect your statements to be discussed by people who think otherwise, just as I expect any statements I make on here to be discussed, challenged, argued with, and so on, by people who think otherwise.

Atheists used not to be able to speak out in this country (or elsewhere). Now we can. So we do. We've some catching up to do with the religions that have had it their way for so long.

If the Christians on Gransnet had a thread to discuss the ins and outs of their beliefs I'd probably have a look out of interest now and then though I would not have much to contribute, being an atheist.

I think the chances they will get that kind of thread going is fairly remote, given the anger some posters have towards Christianity.

Why can't the Christians have a thread where they can discuss their beliefs in peace and then we can have another thread for hot debate on the topic?

I can't really understand what the Christians would discuss - after 2000 years hasn't it all been said?

I was thinking exactly the same, petallus, but it seems it would not be acceptable.

Because, petallus, that would be cliquey, and gransnet isn't. Every thread is open to everyone who wants to contribute. I'm sure there are forums where only christians discuss what they regard as christian matters. And there are church groups which, I presume, are self limiting. But gransnet is an open forum. Christians, or any other group, religious or not, cannot expect to have special privileges that separate them from the rest.

Bags that last post sounds a bit harsh! Getting everyone's own back? And the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of posts, OPs as well, start off anti-religion. This was happening before I started to post and goes on independently of anything I post. So it isn't a reaction to my posts that cause the negative comments. I'm reacting to other people's negativity. Telling me I should be prepared to defend my opinions is a bit off the mark.

But I only tell you what I would tell myself! I expect to have to defend what I say. Why shouldn't you? I'm happy to react/respond to negativity on any subject that I care about. I don't think I really understand what you're saying, unless it's just that you don't expect to be argued with.

I don't think my previous post is harsh. It's just realistic.

If someone started a thread on atheism, I don't think it would attract many negative posts from members with religious beliefs. It seems guaranteed to happen the other way round. I'm not arguing for either side, by the way, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why any mention of religion attracts instant reassertion of non-belief by atheist members.

Like Ana I too feel it odd that those who claim to have no faith find the need to bother with those of us who do?
Personally I cannot stand golf - therefore I wouldn't even bother to look at golf threads whether for or against the game. I certainly have better things to do than enter into long and heated debates about the rights and wrongs of a good walk ruined!
Whilst I believe in everyone's rights to their own opinion I do find it curious that the minute anyone mentions religion in virtually any context the anti-religion posters are there?
Could this possibly be a bit of mischief-making

Not mischief-making sbagran. For me, it feels alien to have to continually refute assumptions made that Christianity is the default position. As an atheist (brought up C of E), I have had a lifetime of having to explain and insist that I should not be categorised as a Christian, simply because I am English. It is so ingrained into documentation and processes, that atheists are pushed into having to do this. I know some progress has been made and many organisations no longer insult Muslims, Jews and atheists by asking for their Christian names, but so many Christians still do think atheists should not have the right or the choice to define themselves as non-believers. Volunteer receptionists in hospital clinics, chaplain in the hospice, meals on wheels organiser being recent examples I have witnessed doing this. It's not difficult to be anti-religion when it gets imposed on you in so many ways, outside the church setting.

If you have no interest in golf then no one will make you play it. However if you have no interest in any Religion you will be pressured to participate in acts of worship in Council Chambers, Schools and at public events. I campaign for a secular society. Why? At the moment my priority is to ensure that my Grandson, and all the other 5 year olds will cease to be presented, in Primary 1 of a state school, with the story of Noah and the Ark as the theme for all their work until half term. When my DD questioned his class teacher she was assured that this was not a Religious Theme - more Historical !?!?!? and that they would be choosing different themes each term from a range of sources. Teacher had the grace to blush when she was forced to admit that after half term the theme will be 'the Good Samaritain' until the run up to Christmas ...........

This is the same deep thinking DGS who was so upset at Easter when the School Chaplain told him that the 'only son' had to die a horrible death to save us from our sins. DGS - an only - son was sobbing that he did not want to die. Now he is asking Mummy why God sent a flood to kill everyone except Noah and if he is liable to do it again if provoked.

Why can't they stick to NICE stories such as 'The Great Big Enormous Turnip' (which teaches co-operation, and incorporates counting) instead of presenting horror stories from the so called 'Good Book'. If they must use bible stories then they should be stressing that they are indeed, only STORIES.

Just for the record...I have a faith...a personal relationship with God I do NOT have a religion...there is a great difference, one which sadly gets ignored by the many who refuse to listen to christians.

I am not trying to convert any of you, the same way as I wouldn't try and convert you all to vegetarianism..which I also strongly believe in....I'm also a Conscientious Objector....I am quite happy with other peoples views, we should all have them and all views should be listened to and respected.It is people without views that worry me.....but why is it that when christianity gets mentioned we are not allowed to express our views? Isn't my faith just as valid as yours?

I posted on this Forum thread because when I looked for a 'Christian' thread, there wasn't one. 'Religion and Spirituality' is a mindless generic term and the majority of voices are bound to be non-christian. Fair enough, but it does mean that the minority christian voice will be shouted at or ignored, we are used to that. (By the way why are you so afraid that I'm going to try and convert you )

Would be nice if we could have a dedicated Christian' forum thread, because despite what you might think there still is a lot to talk about and share even after 2000 years...

PS...what does OP mean please? I'm new here and have no idea

Not allowed to express your views? How do you make that out? You can post anything you like, just as non-believers can. Religious people have been able to stifle debate for thousands of years, and obviously the churches don't like losing their monopoly of debate (or their places in the House of Lords, or their charitable status for tax). As for being 'washed in the blood of the lamb' - I would not want to belong to any organisation that was founded on a blood sacrifice.
And there were plenty of atheist conscientious objectors - it had nothing to do with religion in many cases.
Why should you be bothered by people without views - they are hardly likely to do you any harm.
I cannot decide, from your two posts, whether you want to enter into debate or just want to tell us about your own faith. If it is the latter, good for you, you are entitled to do that, just as the rest of us are entitled to carry on trying to explain our own views and understand what others believe.

Bags 'suggested' that one way lilygran could stop her faith being got at was not to talk about it on a public forum. Why shouldn't she? No one has the right to suggest or otherwise what a person can or cannot post.

Quite, Ceesnan, but if we post what we believe and others do not agree we must expect them to say so.

But what is so wrong with asking for a thread where people who wish to do so can discuss their views on religion? As has already been stated, if you don't want to take part, then don't, but surely there is no harm in letting them discuss in peace without the same old hi-jacking by the atheists/agostics who feel they have to proclaim their non religious status. Is leaving one thread for a dedicated discussion too much to ask?

Why not start the thread and see how it goes - but I don't think you can expect to dictate what other people post. I don't expect to be able to start a thread about my strongly-held beliefs about religion without believers putting their own, different, views on it.
There are plenty of forums for religious believers to hold discussions - try Ship of Fools. Gransnet is an open forum for all members, whatever their religious affiliation, or none.

ceesnan, I don't post stuff on gransnet that I don't feel I can talk about, whether people will agree with me or not. That is my approach to gransnet and I think it's a healthy one.

If it's OK, which it is, for one person to "react" to what they see as negative comments/remarks/statements about something they feel strongly about, then it's also OK for someone else to "react" to something they see as negative or, perhaps, just plain wrong, about something they feel strongly about.

That is what I did at the start of this thread. I reacted to a comment about secularism which I felt was caused by a mistaken understanding of that subject. Why does anyone have a problem with that? Isn't it rather important to understand what meaning we are attaching to a word if we are to have an adult discussion about something?

A couple of people have reminded me of a special meaning of the word secular (thank you for that) but my argument is that the meaning the OP intended would actually have been better served by other words, such as atheistic and agnostic. I said that because I think that's what she was referring to, and not to secularism. As I pointed out to ElsieJoy, she can be a christian and a secularist at the same time. She cannot be a christian and an atheist at the same time. I think it's debatable whether anyone can be a christian and an agnostic at the same time. The difference in meaning between the words secular on the one hand and atheist/agnostic on the other, is LARGE. It is not helpful to anyone for them to be confused.

I have not, yet, commented on the faith part of the ElsieJoy's opening remark, so no-one can 'accuse' me of 'attacking' her beliefs. To be honest, I'm not terribly interested in that part, only in the proper use of the the word secular.

Closed minds are depressing be they Christian ones or Atheist ones.

True debate isn't really possible unless there is some degree of openness to new ideas.

What is closed about trying to define secularism, petallus? I really don't know what know what you have a problem with on this thread! It seems to me, you just want to be insulting. Why?

So far there hasn't been any discussion about christianity on this thread by the people who are supposed to want it.

I would add that I'm trying to have a discussion with someone about nuances in a bible story on another thread but it hasn't taken off yet.

Bags I'm just doing what we are supposed to be able to do, speaking my mind without bothering to be tactful. Any feeling of being insulted is just an unfortunate side effect of that.

When I read the original post I took secular to mean not Christian. Now I know better but since I'm not a pedant I'm not too bothered.

Like you I picked up on lilygran's remark about nuances of the Isaac story and decided to ask her to go into it further.

Greatnan I am guessing that this was supposed to be a thread where Christians could talk together about their faith. And look what happened!

What happened is what happens on most threads - people posted what they wanted to post. Have you seen what happened to my innocent thread about a depressing friend?
I am not complaining - it is the nature of forums. I think you will find that the atheists amongst us do not usually complain - we are able to accept the cut and thrust of debate without descending to personal insults.