Christian Grans

In my last post I was trying to open the door for the believers to tell us what and why they believe - I am genuinely interested even thoiugh I do not share these.

Flickety - looks like we might be singing from the same hymn sheet after all. Yes, catholicism is my personal bete noir because it appears to be more powerful and to do more damage than other Christian sects - though not, of course, than other religions which treat women as the property of men.
I don't think Quakerism is doing much harm, far from it, even though I can't agree with its basic premise that there is 'something other'.

Lilygran I do read other people's posts before answering them. I was aware that "washed in the blood of the lamb" is figurative, although I am not sure that it is a metaphor and I had already noticed that you had pointed this out. My comment was in response to part of Mishap's post of 15.40.

What aspects of the churches and practices described here do you not recognise?

FlicketyB No one on this thread has claimed to be opposed to religious belief. In fact, the most vociferous atheists have repeatedly pointed out that they do not object to the beliefs, just to those beliefs being foisted on those who don't share them.

I find trying to get exact examples of offensive posts is like nailing jelly to the wall. Lots of accusations, no actual quotes. Apparently, if we atheists simply state our beliefs Christians are entitled to take offence. Can it work both ways?

I am quite sure that gransnetters are stating beliefs not just using tactics, i have never suggested otherwise but the versions of christianity attacked always seem to be catholicism in its Irish form, fundamentalist christianity in creationist form and I am at one with those who find religion in that form difficult to accept.

flickety

I don't pick any bits since I'm an atheist. I have met some pretty obnoxious Christians but also know some lovely enlightened ones who take a broad view of their faith, can tolerate doubt and will engage in debate very readily without getting upset.

This tells me that although there is obviously much to be criticised about the Church and Christians there are also things which are admirable, especially in individual Christians.

What I object to in people like Dawkins is that they set up an exaggerated worst view scenario and then proceed to criticise it whilst ignoring the alternative view.

It's cheating and must surely be deliberate in anybody with a modicum of intelligence.

feetlebaum I agree about the Pope's state visit. I didn't object to his visiting the UK but I did object to taxpayers' money being used to fund his visit. Vatican City is not recognised as a state by the UN, so how could this be justified? The Catholics who welcomed him so wholeheartedly should have funded the trip, perhaps together with some of the wealth in the Vatican Bank.

@petallus - But it's all in your Holy user manual, isn't it? If, as you imply, you only pick the 'nice' bits to follow - who gives you the authority to do that?

As to 'offending', GreatNan, it takes two to tango - there is no offence until someone decides to be offended - so it's their fault! (Oh, OK, not seriously, but there is a grain of truth there.) And why is taking offence the prerogative of the 'other side'? If I could be bothered I would find it offensive that, say, the Cenotaph ceremony is hijacked by the Christian church folk. I was offended by the Pope's 'State visit' last year.

What version would that be, Flickety?
I don't use tactics, I just state my beliefs.

It's a tactic people like Dawkins employ as well.

One of the reasons I rarely take part in any religous thread is that the version of religion I see set up and knocked down by those opposed to religious belief on Gransnet threads like this is so extreme that I can make no connection with it either

How nice to see you back, lotusflower - welcome!
I wish someone would tell me exactly how I can say 'I don't believe in god' and 'I object to having other people's beliefs foisted on me' and 'I think some religious organisations are causing harm to people' in such a way that nobody is offended. I don't take offence when people state that they do believe in god, no matter how strange their way of expressing themselves seems to me.

As a matter of fact, 'the churches and practices described' are outwith my experience as well, since I am a former member of the Church of Scotland - and, before anyone asks, I was never an ultra-Calvinist 'wee free'. I am, nevertheless, a Humanist. There wasn't anything specific that put me off the church. I just came to the conclusion that I was mature enough to do without the 'crutches' that faith provided.

Mishap there's nothing unwelcoming about stating your opinion, true. It ain't what you say, it's the way that you (plural) say it.

Flickety, Mice

The cruel tortures done in the name of the church are not metaphors. They were real.

I didn't say the crucifixion was a metaphor. I said 'washed in the blood of the lamb' was a metaphor. I sometimes get the feeling that posters are in such a hurry to share that they don't actually read the previous posts. And the churches and practices you anti-Christians describe are like no place I've ever been in!

Absolutely Lotusflower. I do hope that Elsie Joy has not been driven away. Her post was a simple declaration of her belief and if she doesn't come back, I can't say I'm surprised.

There is nothing unwelcoming about stating one's opinion.

The OP has set people thinking (which is good) and offered an opportunity to debate these issues. People have said very clearly why they do not believe and their concerns.

I am sure the OP and others who share her views are able to do this too from their standpoint - and that we will all listen with interest, even though we do not necessarily share those beliefs.

People and ideas are all interesting - bring 'em on!

The priest who said the Requiem Mass for my sister after she was killed in a road accident made no attempt to justify her death on any religious ground, on the contrary, he believed that in a world where we had been given free will God could no more actively step in to stop my sister's death than a person standing on one side of a wide canyon could stop someone on the other side who they could only see at a great distance walking over the edge.

I found that very comforting, I have never understood why, in a world where we have free will so many Christians, and I am one, should constantly be expecting God to jump in and sort their problems out. Its up to us to sort out our own problems that is what free will is all about.

Christ on a cross is not a metaphor as he is said to have been crucified – and that is certainly an instrument of torture. Following the stations of the cross is a pretty gruesome activity.

I thought gransnetters were surposed to be welcoming, you certainly haven't welcomed ElsieJoy! Why if you are anti christ do you bother coming on this thread and why get so upset about it, any mention of christ and it's like a red rag to a bull. Why not start a non believer thread and you can post on that you would cetainly have lots to talk about.

Religions seek a meaning to life and the world, which is fine - but it does mean that if you find none you are faced with coming to terms with that. In my discussions with christians and people of other religions, they always ask "But if you have no religion, what is the point of it all?" And the answer is I do not know - I have to take personal responsibility for making my life meaningful to me and to others. I am OK with that. I do not see that as negative. In fact the knowledge that we only have one life is a very good incentive to do all you can to live it well for yourself and those around you.

I have never been able to grasp why, if a deity were to exist, he/she/it is so damned opaque that people are left to create deities of their own based on their life experience and the cultural norms of their society. This has been so troublesome.

I do agree about the christian imagery that is so distasteful - blood of the lamb, images of an instrument of torture etc, sacrifices. We all, understand that these are metaphors, but they do not enhance life. I shudder when I hear of children being subjected to this stuff at school.

Life is full of the meaning we give it. Its meaning doesn't depend on anything else. To me this is a very positive way of looking at life.