Public prayer and Christian hypocrisy

I don't normally join in these religion type threads because they lead to argument and we each believe what we want to believe and that is fine with me. I am however very interested in the subject of religion and would call myself a "seeker". I recently read a book by Julian Baggini called "Religion for Atheists" in which he looked at the good things that churches have done down the centuries though he himself is an atheist. I thought about that recently when I saw that there had a been a service in the village church for little April whose body has not been found. There seems to be no other way for a community to come together to remember someone, to gain comfort from one another and to feel a sense of community and solidarity in an awful situation - whether you believe in a supreme being or not. There is no secular equivalent and maybe we need one.

wisewoman - there was a thread about secular pastors before - good idea, I think.

Thanks Mishap I will have a look but I think it is not just the person but the building the "community centre" (in the days before Community Centres). I was talking to a friend recently about funerals (I know, it is my age ) and was saying that if you didn't want to be cremated and didn't want to have a church service, where would you go for your gathering before the actual burial. I can't see hotels advertising - come and hold your funeral here! Anyone have any good ideas about this? Maybe this has moved too far from public prayer.

Wisewoman I think any pleasant hotel would welcome people gathering together there before a burial, particularly if they were having a cuppa/glassof and nibbles before or after the ceremony to fortify themselves (and paying!) There just is not a formula to express it.

That is an interesting question wisewoman
" Where would you have your gathering?"
More importantly where would you want to be buried? Or could you be buried?
Multi denominational burial ground could mean a 50 mile drive?
Although there seem to be plenty of green burial sites springing up.
You know, the card board box, at the foot of a tree.
The internment industry has cottoned on to this by the way and now charges as much for the card board as the wooden coffin.

Most gatherings are usually after the burial, and I am sure any hotel would be delighted to host a fabulous wake.

If you accept the above words of Elegran and then go to the Crematorium for your Humanist service - there you have it - QED

Yes the Christians do think they have progressed from the Bible, to use methods more appropriate for now. Even the Bible is a creation several hundred years after Jesus.

johanna, why can't you be buried in a local authority cemetery? The one in our town takes anyone and it doesn't seem to matter if you have any religion or not.

And round and round and round we go........

Lilygran!

Agree when, but in my county it seems there is not much room left.
They are old established grounds, and no new ones have been allocated as far as I know.
It does seem as if cremation is actively promoted.
Sad really.

Why is it sad, Johanna? The useful elements in your body will be returned to the earth whether you are buried or cremated. I think burials are still big business in the UK. We had a non-religious service in the chapel of the crematorium for my mother - various members of the family spoke lovingly about her life, and we had some of her favourite classical pieces of music. Then we all had lunch in a local hotel. It wasn't a sad occasion - she was 91 and had suffered from dementia for several years, so we just remembered her good times.

I think I've read about cemetery recycling somewhere. Shifting ancient bones into a more compact space to make way for new burials. Or something. Has anyone else come across that?

There are woodland burial places which I think would be lovely. I dislike cremation mainly because I feel the places are like conveyer belts with one family coming out the door as the next goes in. Just a personal preference. I think it is difficult to find somewhere to have celebration of life before the burial. It can be a bit cold having the whole gathering and remembering bit outside!

wisewoman would it be possible to have some sort of ceremony at home? It's amazing how many people one can cram in when necessary.

In my family, when someone dies, we keep the body at home (other than a brief visit to the funeral parlour to carry out the embalming). This gives family and friends time to say their goodbyes, by the time the lid is put on and the coffin carried out, we are ready for the burial or cremation. People gather outside the house and leave for the funeral from there rather than their own home if at all possible. I find the practice of whipping the deceased out of the house as quickly as possible much more disturbing.

bagsit happens abroad. You only have your grave for about 12 years.

Sounds like a sensible use of resources to me – in this case, burial space.

Why don't they bury coffins upright? You'd be able to fit in a lot more.

johanna I was looking at charges in an undertakers last week – my mother-in-law was cremated on Tuesday. Cardboard coffins don't cost as much as wooden ones. They seem to be around £290, whereas wooden ones start at about £650 and go on up into the thousands. Wicker coffins seem to be somewhere in the £500–£700 range.

Moslems are buried only in a shroud so it must be OK to manage without the wooden or cardboard or wicker box (basket?).

Lilygran Lots of people who choose green funerals are buried in only a shroud.

johanna You can be buried almost anywhere, provided you have rights to the property, you obey health rules and you don't interfere with supplies of water, gas etc. However, if you bury someone in your back garden, I'm not sure what it does to the price you can expect when you come to sell the house.

People bury their dead pets in their back gardens, don't they? What's the difference other than deeper pit perhaps?

In the Alps we saw a village that was clinging to the mountainside and it had a very tiny cemetry - after a few years they dug up the bones, labelled them up and painted flowers etc. on them and stored them in a room with public access so people could go round and admire them.

Ambrose Bierce defined it:

"PRAY, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."

Bags Stately homes have mausoleums. Nevertheless, I suspect that potential purchasers of a suburban semi might well expect a price reduction if granny and grandad lie beneath the lawn. I wonder if you have to tell them.

Reduction! Huh! They should pay more, if anything, for the added fertiliser.