Excellent essay

Oh, put a sock in it, Bags! And just in case anyone wants to read what J Sacks wrote rather than someone else's version here you are: www.spectator.co.uk/features/8932301/atheism-has-failed-only-religion-can-fight-the-barbarians/

Sacks does talk an awful lot of tripe... didn't he try to accuse Richard Dawkins of anti-semitism recently?

And how much of the art he refers to might have been commissioned by the religious, but created by the atheist?

Awesome art isn't the exclusive domain of the religious, and the sooner the state is completely secular, the better. There's nothing ethical about bishops being able to vote on political issues by virtue (virtue??) of them being able to sit in the House of Lords, rather then democratic process.

I read both essays/articles. Intellectualising the unjust/untrue does not make it any more believable.

The current 'Jesus and Mo' cartoon credits Sacks as script-writer...

www.jesusandmo.net/2013/06/19/trust/

lily, I'd really appreciate it if you weren't so rude to me. None of my posts attack your personal faith or anyone else's. I am always only interested in what might be called the 'mechanics' of religion as opposed to non-religion. That is all. Some people enjoy the stuff I post and I enjoy reading the responses of anyone who wants to join in the discussion of whatever it is. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't want me to be outspoken about atheism, but I'm not asking you to read anything I post, nor am I being rude or personally antagonistic to you or other religous people by posting atheist stuff.

If you open the threads I start just to tell me to shut up you are being rude. Please stop it.

Your link to the article by Sacks would have been fine without the rude introduction. In fact, I'm glad you did post that link. Cheers, pal (Glasgow friendly-speak).

I would n' t pick up all the local lingo Bags.

Just saying.

Lilygran - Don't the buggers get to you.

#youtoocouldgetasnottyemailfromGNHQ

I missed out the word "let" soz

It's the rude remarks that get me down, jings. However, they make me even more determined not to be silenced about atheism.

Why isn't there a forum topic called Atheism? Then Bags could post to her hearts content and Lilygran needn't look at the posts. We'd all be happy. It could be called Atheism and Non spirituality or perhaps Soulessness and that would be a balanced list. How about it Cari and co? I've forgotten what this thread was about.

Thank you for the link, Bags. Not all our believers are rude - it is quite unnecessary and suggests the person cannot come up with a reasoned argument, so falls back on childishness.

Stansgran - we don't need a separate thread - atheism is the philosophy espoused by quite a lot of us and this thread is perfectly appropriate.

Perhaps there should be a Philosophy forum topic then.

Bags from a post earlier today I understood you to say feeling hurt/insulted was largely in the mind of the hurt/insulted one!

Go for the jugular, why don't you, Petallus?

It's quite depressing to see debate dragged down - my perception, and I take responsibility for it!

I'm with Stansgran. I thought this was a section about religion and spirituality but I seem to keep finding anti-religion and anti-spirituality posts. Perhaps we do need an alternative section if only to stop the aggressive posting that fills this slot. Seems to me this is the only subject where the non-supporters are so dominant... If we had a vegetarian slot would meat eaters be so vocal?

I like the idea of a section called 'Soulessness', Stansgran. Bags has said that Gransnet is her forum for displaying her support for atheism and it seems quite wrong that she should choose to do so in a section titled 'Religion and Spirituality'. She obviously goes looking for journalism etc which supports her views. Why?

I reckon that if a post appears rude to people other than the person it was aimed at then it is rude. I was quite tacken aback by the rudeness of your post Lilygran

The first one, just to be clear.

'Soullessness' meaning lack of capacity for deep feelings and humanity? Is that how atheists are perceived? Well I never!

It would be ok to come on here to say something to do with spirituality, but not religion. But to always to come on just to knock others' religious beliefs is unkind.

I think there should be a separate forum for outright atheism. It is ridiculous to include it with religion and spirituality.

Being an atheist these days is quite chic.

Atheism is thriving, it doesn't need standing up for.

when I stand by my remark which I felt needed saying. I expected Bags not to feel wounded by it. Anyway, she has not complained.

Petallus: would you describe atheism as a religion? Or a philosophy? Or something else perhaps?