Should we follow France's lead and ban face coverings?

Does your hand get at all tired, copying out so many of other people's posts?

It makes it easier for some of us to know what she is answering instead of constantly going back through to see what was said earlier.
My memory is not like an elephant's these days (and probably never was!)
I find it helpful anyway.

(I think HollyDaze probably copies and pastes the relevant bits of others' posts, rather than typing them out...)

Because I am basically lazy, I don't bother copying out other people's posts however, it always helps when somebody does take the trouble to do so, like HollyDaze
We may prefer [as parents now and grandparents] our girls to wear demure outfits, but when we were teenagers ourselves? No, we wanted to look attractive. Nothing wrong with that, and the boys mostly managed to keep their hands off us without permission.What does it say about Muslim boys if a girl has to be muffled up in order to not drive him mad with desire, it's laughable.We may also be a nation of drinkers, but no worse than a lot of countries, what about Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Iceland, they can sink a few there as well [and totter about in the streets.]If we are talking 'big problems' it's drugs, and that affects most countries.

Well Hollydaze I stand by what I said, despite your forcibly expressed disapprobation.

Does your hand get at all tired, copying out so many of other people's posts?

Only the British could turn a thread about banning face coverings into an opportunity to beat ourselves up for our general shortcomings as a nation

Agreed. To read some of these posts, you'd think Britain was the only country to have troublesome young people.

And children on the continent seem to be better brought up than ours. Just much nicer.

That is a gross generalisation that does a disservice to the thousands/millions of British young people who are law abiding, well mannered and hard working. You can't use the yardstick of the chavs to measure all young people - that would be as unreasonable as saying all Muslims are would-be terrorists.

British children have been labelled, by the WHO, as some of the most depressed children in the world. Maybe that answers some questions ...

That is why I think Blairs idea of longer opening hours was nuts !

We don"t really sit and slowly drink as they do on the Continent !

Again

Hmm

night, I don"t think is an opportunity to^ beat ourselves up ^
However, I do most certainly think we as a nation drink more than many others !

Hmm

Gotta face facts. Can't be criticising others without acknowledging our own shortcomings.

Only the British could turn a thread about banning face coverings into an opportunity to beat ourselves up for our general shortcomings as a nation

And children on the continent seem to be better brought up than ours. Just much nicer.

Thanks Holly

Excellent post Iam64

Why would English schoolgirls call traditionally dressed muslim girls "tarty"?

I said 'in a likewise fashion' - as in commenting on the form of dress chosen.

I see your point, Granjura.
We live in a very rural backwater of SW France, most of the locals dress modestly (can't afford new!) though this is starting to change with the teenagers.
We get many british holidaymakers, and notice the teens wearing outfits which would be ok at the seaside, or a big city. But inappropriate here.
They get lots of puzzled or leery looks.

Iam64. I was a teenager in the late 60s and early 70s- living in London from April 1970- and hitch-hiked to the Isle of Wight to see Hendrix, the Stones, the Who, etc- so I was definitely young once- wore torn jeans and mini-skirts, etc, smoked and drunk a bit too much at time, etc (never any drugs though).

I am surprised none of the GNeters who live abroad have commented. I'm sure they would confirm that Britain does have a problem at the moment, which goes far beyond wearing 'different' clothes and having a bit of fun- with far too large a % of youngsters. If you do dare go out to town any Saturday night after midnight- you will see what I mean, I'm sure. And if you lived in Barcelona, Budapest, Ayanapa, Magaluf, San Antonio, etc- you would be appalled- really. It may come as a shock that the behaviour of young Brits abroad (and in our cities at week-ends) is truly shocking, even to youngsters of the same age in France, Germany and all mainland Europe.

It is tragic and VERY very dangerous for those kids- and leads to many rapes, injuries, deaths from fights, falling from balconies, acute liver failure, etc, etc. I am 2/3 British, lived in UK 40 years, have daughters still there and grand-children- so I am certainly not anti-British. I am truly concerned- especially as that behaviour is also accompanied by huge drug use, be it e's, cocaïne, skunk and many more synthetic and totally unchecked drugs.

My point was however- that in many ways it is naïve to think our girls are 'free'- they are under huge pressure to conform to peer pressure, trash magazines, and manipulated from all sides by advertising, etc, etc.

When my Muslim 6th Former said they felt sorry for them- i was truly shocked- and it gave me lots of food for thought. It is useful, I believe- to point out that Muslim girls wearing a scarf and modest clothing, and even the burka- may also be manipulated- but perhaps to a lesser and less pervasive extent.

" ^Polarising girls who dress like 'tarts'^"

Nobody was !!!! It was stated by a poster that that is how a group of Mus.....

Oh never mind. [tears hair and vows to walk away]

This thread is reminding me of the 3 Yorkshire Men Sketch - "short, it were a bloody pellet" springs to mind as a grumpy comment on the length of skirts.

We were young once, and I recall my parents wishing their daughters would wear something a bit more stylish than levi's, old fur coats (£1 on the local market) etc, and also cut our hair, not wear ear rings (so common mum thought). Reading this thread, you wouldn't think many of us had ever been anything other than simply perfect in every way.

I don't dispute that British society has a problem with excess, whether it's fast food, alcohol or less than flattering clothing. One of the Manchester art galleries had a large exhibition of Hogarth prints some years ago. It was glorious, though depressing as the sketches were of Gin Lane, drunken women, gin in one hand, baby at the breast, or ignored at her feet etc. It reminded me of the child protection cases I was working with during that period. Almost without exception, drugs, alcohol and violence were at the root of the families difficulties. These isles seem to have a long history of excess. It's part of our culture, but not the dominant part. Let's not lose a sense of perspective. Polarising girls who dress like 'tarts' and girls who wear a burka doesn't add a lot to the discussion I don't feel.

Yes, probably quite old, Ana

I was in my early 20s and married when mini skirts came in and DH was horrified that I would wear one to work. But they were shortish skirts, not belts, no cleavage and no midriffs!

My comment would be why do you have to remove a crash helmet when paying for petrol in a garage if a person wearing a full face covering would be allowed access ? This seems unfair discrimination against any motorcyclist. I would also adopt the French secular system of education and get rid of faith schools.

I agree that it is a very big problem, granjura, and not something we Brits can be at all proud of.

rosequartz, it depends on how old you are - if you were a teenager in the fifties or very early 60s you probably didn't wear mini-skirts, but my friends and I did and I don't recall boys/men lusting after us (apart from the odd, and quite welcome at the time, wolf-whistle!).

We certainly didn't display any cleavage though - I think that's the main difference today, breasts have to be big and on display...

There are articles in the Independent and other newspapers, not just the DM. Also discussions on travel Forums and serious concern expressed by British embassies abroad, insurers, etc, etc.

It does not mean all young Brits will behave thus, but it would be very naïve and even putting one's head in the sand- to deny it is a British problem- same as the terrible drunken behaviour, litter, etc, etc, in all British cities at week-ends- which just does NOT happen to the same extent elsewhere. It is sad, and tragic- ignoring it will NOT make it go away, sadly.

Yes there was an article in the infamous DM today about the behaviour of young British women in particular, in Magaluf. I will not put a link as I am sure you can find it if you wish and I am not very good at putting in links on my tab.

In response to an earlier post, I do not remember dressing in a tarty or provocative fashion when I was a teenager, perhaps I was very boring.

^Oh for goodness sake. It was one bunch of schoolgirls describing how they saw the manner of dressing of another bunch. #highhorse

I doubt that would have been the reaction if English schoolgirls had retaliated in a 'likewise' fashion - they'd have been called racists or Islamaphobes; can't have it both ways.^

Why would English schoolgirls call traditionally dressed muslim girls "tarty"?

Nightowl- I am afraid, and I take no joy in this at all (as I have 2 daughters who grew up in UK and are still there- and taught 6th Formers for over 30 years- most were decent, hard-working and wonderful)- that that kind of behaviour abroad is really a British specific problem.

Won't put any links here, but perhaps Google something like

why do young British tourists behave so badly abroad

and see what come up. It is a very serious situation indeed, with terrible consequences, including many rapes, death. Look at the pictures and see how many of the girls are dressed (if you can call it dressed). If I had to choose, between that option and the burka- I think I'd go for the burka, honest.