What secularism is

Christianity is and would be taught, and the different denominations of Christianity described, the tenets of other religionsas are taught and would be taught, how they all began, the history of their development and the stories of their heroes and heroines. What would not be taught in state schools is that one particular faith is the only way to avoid eternal damnation, and that to have no faith at all is to be on the primrose path to the everlasting bonfire.

The same with public life in all its forms. There would be nothing to stop you joining any religious group you liked, and carrying out its observances, and bringing up your children in that faith. But there would be no official link between the state and any one denomination. That is the definition of secularism.

I cant see how anyone could grow up completey unprejudiced in a family. Even being brought up in an institution in any country will have prejudices.

1. God exists therefore
2. God and christians want all people to know about it.

People should be given the chance to knowledge.
And not just at the end of time, when all will know.

An interesting position soon - even my vicar friends acknowledge that the existence of god is a matter of belief.

In many homes, it will not be taught.
And then why would future generations introduce their children to religious leaders and buildings, other than in a say architectural way.

It must be very hard to be non-religious - having to strive to do the right thing without a God figure there in the background, whose approbation you seek. A bit like sailing a sea without a chart.

God is very useful.

soontobe Glad I can make you smile. The home atmosphere and example has most influence on belief - or against belief if it has been forced too hard upon them. It is a domestic matter, not a state one. Of course it is not easy to bring up children to follow tamely in your footsteps - any footsteps. That is how it should be, with them using their own judgment.

Once upon a time, whole nations were converted because their rulers had seen the light (or the trading advantages of conversion) One day they were all pagans, the next all Christians. Or one day all Catholic, the next all Protestant. Faith is no longer a matter of a national diktat (Catholics are no longer excluded from the army, or from public office) so it should no longer be a national church.

As Elegran says, people's beliefs have often had more to do with politics than anything else.

I think that there is a strong possibility that religion might be stronger in a secular state, as those who believe in whatever faith will have a stronger motivation to make sure that their voice is heard. A secular state does not stop them doing just that.

I do not think that anyone with a faith should worry about it dying out in a secular state - their religion would be a pretty poor thing if it could be knocked off course by separating the state from religion.

A state chould try to look after its citizens.

People cannot be made to be christians overnight. Christianity does not work that way.

It wouldnt die out, no.

should not chould

All of its citizens, whatever their religious persuasions. Without even considering or knowing their religious persuasions or trying to influence them.

So, if Christianity, or any other preferred religion, will not be ended by the existence of a truly secular state in which the laws protect people's right to follow whichever faith they like, or none, what's the problem with secularism?

In answer to an earlier question from lily, I'm not sure there is a truly secular state anywhere in the world as yet, but France is making a pretty good effort to be so. The US constitution is all for it in principle too ( and look how many religious nutters there are over there! Religion certainly hasn't been stamped out, nor should it be).

Following this with interest, as a Cof E having RC convent schooling it left me confused as the school ethos in the mid-60s was that we 'non-Catholics' were definitely second class pupils to be somewhat pitied. The occasional non-Catholic who converted to RC was virtually held up as a potential Saint and showered with kudos........
The concept of secularism was definitely not for consideration!

The bishops are elected by the bishops. The hereditaries who are left are elected by their peers. The rest are appointed. This has nothing to do with secularism and a secular state, per se, would do nothing to improve the situation except to remove the bishops from the upper house. The problems of democracy in this state ie the UK, have little to do with it having an established church and everything to do with a wrong-headed and piecemeal approach to constitutional reform. OK, bags?

'One nation, under God' bags? There's no state church in the USA but I don't think you can call it a 'secular state'.

Technically it is, lily. Separation of church and state is enshrined in its constitution. Ditto in republican Frnace.

So, if Christianity, or any other preferred religion, will not be ended by the existence of a truly secular state in which the laws protect people's right to follow whichever faith they like, or none, what's the problem with secularism?

There may be less christians for instance.
There will be some people who never have the oppurtunity to hear about religions.
They may well not know enough to become a christians or whichever religion.

Putting aside the wrong-headed and piecemeal approach to constituional reform in the UK aside for a moment, lily, in part because you still haven't specified what the wrong-headedness and piecemealness is exactly, could I ask you to read the NSS post I linked to and pick out exactly what you object to and why? As a favour. To help me understand why you are so opposed to what I see as pure and simple fairness.

Anyone else who has objections can post similarly too, if they wish, and welcome. I really do want to understand where the problem lies.

You appear not to have read elegran's posts about how religion would be taught, soontobe.

Besides which, why would there possibly being fewer christians matter? Christians, as a whole, are no holier or better in any way than any other group of faithful or unfaithful people.

why would there possibly being fewer christians matter?

Because of everyones souls, and eternity.

Which post, thatbags?

The preamble to the American constitution is as I stated above. Separation of church and state but not from God.

Secularism doesn't separate people from god (or gods) either. It only separates government from religion(s) so that a person's religious beliefs or lack of religious beliefs is not relevant when it comes to applying laws.