What secularism is

If they have separated church and state, they are secular.
Neither church not state have been abolished, just separated. If God is over everyone, then the people are still under God, although the state is not under the church, nor the church under the state.

soontobe The doctrines of the Christian church, of all the different denominations of it, could be taught alongside other systems of belief, without selecting any one denomination or other belief as the only one which is sancioned by the state If there is merit in Christianity over all the others, then it will show in the comparison.

If there is not any greater merit in it, why should anyone choose it above all others?

How did YOU choose your faith? which others did you reject and why? Did you choose without knowing what else you were rejecting?

The definition of secularism in the OP suggests that separation of church and state (or any other religion and state) would and does result in a happier, more equal and more democratic state. It wouldn't because the causes of misery, inequality and lack of democracy do not have their roots solely in religion. The state of the British constitution is not irrelevant to this discussion. There are other problems which need to be addressed and which are of much more urgency than removing the bishops from the House of Lords. Also, just a thought, you'd have to remove the former Chief Rabbi and the other representatives of various religions, I suppose. And the issue of central government supporting faith schools in England has become so problematic now that anyone can get state funding to set up an academy, it would be extremely difficult to unravel, I'd have thought.

I don't see secularism as a panacea for removing misery, inequality etc. It is just a step along the road to a fairer state. We still have to have the right politicians in place to tackle all these problems and to do so with vigour.

Because there are other problems to be addressed does not mean that this one should not be. The upper house is in need of reform and getting rid of the right of bishops to be there simply because they are bishops is a good place to start.

Secularism doesn't separate people from god (or gods) either

It can do. That is exactly what it can do.

I think I have always believed in God Elegran.

Do you really think that people need the STATE to be a conduit between them and God? How on earth did the first Christians manage, when it was worse than not being linked to the state - it was a disreputable and persecuted weird sect! Yet that was the fastest-growing era, in the rate of conversions against total numbers.

You say you have always believed in God. Did you come out of the womb believing and singing Halleluyah, or did you wait to be told of God? You probably don't remember consciously when you first heard of Him, because your parents believed, and you took it for granted and followed them.

Do you really think that people need the STATE to be a conduit between them and God?

Every little helps

Only one of my parents was a christian.
I lived rurally. I do think that helps as you are surrounded by nature.
I was also surrounded by animals.

I find the god/nature thing fascinating. I have never understood why living in the country (as I do) should encourage a belief in a deity. What I see around me is extraordinarily beautiful but equally cruel - red in tooth and claw and all that.

I can marvel at what I see - some of which I love and some I hate - but it does not tell me whether there is a god - how could it?

Nature gets on with living without thinking too much about whether there is a god.

My sentiments exactly, Elegran

Agreed!

And I am a believer, but agree they should be separated.

soontobe it sounds like you believe in a kind of brainwashing! I went to Sunday School regularly from a very young age, church on Sunday as I grew older, know all about the Bible, studied A level Religious Education etc etc. It did not make me a Christian. That is not how it works!

There are several secular countries where religious practice by citizens is strong.

I think it would be good (though very challenging!) to get rid of schools with a religious bias and just have state schools that taught about religion and belief systems.

We should all have the right to follow the religious/belief system of our choice without fear of discrimination or favour bias from government or fellow citizens

Nature doesnt just happen.

I could not fail to be moved by say seeds turning into things. I could see that man had very little to do with it all.
And if it wasnt man...?

And the sky. Well that doesnt have anything at all to do with man.

Penstemmon. I agree that is not how it necessarily works. Indeed, it can put some people off, especially if they are exposed to too much religion.
Or people who say they are religious, but do not do as they say.
It is no guarantee.

An individual person's choice and will comes into it too.

I mean religion, not brainwashing in my last post!

Even the deepest-dyed atheist is moved by seeds turning into plants, and plants making seeds to continue the line. Life is a miracle every nano-second, and the awareness of that is just as strong if you believe that it all developed from a grain of matter as if you believe that someone/something that already existed created it.

But this is not a thread about believing or not believing in God. It is about whether the state should interfere with your religion.

If you believe in God, then you will not want people to not hear enough about God.
That is really the beginning and end of my answer.

I rather like and believe in God.

Especially at this time of the Year, Our Dear Saviours Birth.

It gives me great pleasure to think of this and I will go to Church with my Family and gives thanks for my blessings , and I have many of them !

to you all .

If the UK state religion were Islam or tree-worship or voodoo, everyone on this forum would vote for secularism. If it were Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren, Anabaptists, Congregationalists, Pentecostalists, or Mormon. or any of the others on this list most of us would be crying out that it is unfair (all except the few who would be suddenly delighted).

Because it is the Church of England (or the Scottish Presbyterian Church) it is assumed to be the natural order of things. Use a little imagination, and picture a House of Lords with 26 automatic Jehovah's Witness members. Legislation for blood tranfusions would get short shrift.

You may believe that the Church of England is the best denomination there is, but it is not the only one there is, and for many citizens it is not the one of their choice.

And the beginning and end of this thread is that SECULARISM WOULD NOT STOP PEOPLE HEARING ABOUT GOD so you are arguing from stubbornness, not from understanding the discussion.

And you have made me shout, soontobe

Sorry to make you shout Elegran.

But they may not hear enough Elegran. But nevermind.

I am amazed ( or perhaps not very observant) that no one has quoted France as an example of a secular state with very clear delineation between church and State. Every commune has its ( usually Catholic) church, priest and many many practising Christians and yet the state including the education system is kept entirely separate.
Works.
Nothing to do with denying God or religion but it is a matter for the conscience of the individual and of the church.
Someone has missed the point somewhere along the line.

Well said Elegran & Soutra

Think how more 'equal' education might be if no school could select on religious grounds.

@Nonu - "I rather like and believe in God.

Especially at this time of the Year, Our Dear Saviours Birth."

Mithras? He was born 25th December...Yeshua bin Josef was most likely a Spring baby, born sometime around 4CE.