If you want to ask a question

Lilygran There is really no need to be sarcastic. As I understand it, a fact is something that can be proved to be true and a belief is "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without
proof".

I would expect you to say "This is what I believe". I wasn't referring to one particular religion. There are all sorts of religions and they all believe that their religion is the true one - do you believe everything they believe is true?

I thought the mansions in "in my house there are many mansions" symbolised the various belief systems that all lead to one God?

Well. puh. Maybe? <scratches head emotion>

What do you reckon, soontobe?

When I brought up the question re Jesus saying the 'many mansions' thing, I was not thinking of the "mansions" at all. Rather, whether Jesus was promising bodily resurrection.

Should we all stop eating shellfish? As in Leviticus 11, 9-12. etc etc

Surely we know that many OT rules and regs were good old Elf & Safety rules to avoid illness and to keep order. Gave it a bit more clout if God said it! Now we have refrigeration eating shellfish and pork is not so risky and also we don't need to bury our dead as quickly.

Funny how we do pick and choose the bits we want/like and disregard other bits e.g.

OT An eye for an eye vs NT Turn the other cheek etc.

I am happy to live my life doing as much good as I can by doing as little harm as possible just because that feels like a positive way to be and, in general I like my fellow human beings. I don't want to sound self satisfied. I have loads of doubts, frustrations, worries and fears but do not feel a deity will help resolve them but know that it helps many many people.

I believe that God is omnipotent but he has also given men and women freewill which somewhat complicates things.

The Bible says that Mary was "full of grace" and "blessed" but that is all. The teaching that she was without sin was not formulated until 1854

I don't think the Bible said that Mary was without sin, soontobe but the Christian church decided that she was.

1. He is able.
2. He is sometimes willing.
4. See 1. and 2.

3. Evil comes from the devil

To continue discussion....

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
—Epicurus

"The opiate of the masses" according to Marx. Promise them heaven, so that they will endure their dreadful lives, and not revolt.

Is religion not a way of keeping the masses in order?

Actually, thinking a little more, my above answer to that is probably wrong.
Of all the religions through the ages, I think that it is highly likely that some religions have been used by some leaders or governments or dictators or whoever to keep the masses in order.

Oh, thanks.

That is an interesting link rosequartz.

durhamjen - no I am not a vegetarian.

Is religion not a way of keeping the masses in order?
No. I would have said it has a bit of the opposite effect personally.

Not sure about your last sentence rosequartz.

Elegran - I could be wrong, but I dont think the bible says that Mary was without sin?

btw, I am not sure if posters are now asking me specifically or in general. And just to be clear, I am more than happy for anyone to answer anything.

Is religion not a way of keeping the masses in order?

Is it cynical of christianity to 'take over' pagan festivals to further their cause?

Doesn't mansions (in the Biblical context) simply mean a place to stay from the Latin manere – to remain or stay?

But the concept of original sin says that everyone is tainted with the sin that got Adam and Eve evicted from the Garden of Eden, and is born with the burden of that inherited guilt. Not, of course, God's only-begotten son whose destiny it was to save mankind from their punishment for sin. Then, since he was born of a mortal woman and could be thought to have himself inherited the sin from her, his mother was deemed to be without original sin, too. I am not sure how her immunity came about.

It gets very complicated. It was all explained to me once, but the details have faded.

Elegran, when I read your history of how the bible was written, it made me think of one big Chinese whisper. Never thought of it that way before.

Soontobe, are you a vegetarian?

(that should have been 'intellectual/moral' superiority)

Assumption of intellectual superiority is certainly not limited to those of faith!

Original sin - I have always had difficulty with this concept but perhaps there us more to it than we think:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29760212

LILY , A SMILE to you.

It's generous of you, Eloethan not to mind us wittering on about beliefs 'provided (we) don't present them as matter of fact'. I think this is where the tolerant secularist and the believer have to part company. As far as we're concerned, matters of faith are matters of fact. Do you want us to say, 'this is what the religion teaches, but of course, it isn't true' ?

Many religions seem to see pain, suffering and sacrifice as a necessary part of testing and strengthening their beliefs, towards ultimate redemption. Followers of some religions, for instance, inflict severe pain on themselves and impose rules that create emotional and physical conflict within the individual (e.g. celibacy). Most religions have practices that I feel originate from a bygone age when human beings' knowledge of natural phenomena was in its infancy and offerings were made in an effort to appease the gods and ward off natural catastrophic events.

I appreciate how and why these rites and practices might have evolved over time and become mixed up with real people and events to form a religion. But I find it difficult to understand how, in this day and age, people continue to perform these rites - for example, float food out onto the sea as an offering to the gods, cover their hair with wigs or scarves, prohibit certain foods or declare certain behaviours as emanating from "the devil".

Of course, science certainly doesn't have all the answers and there are still a million things we don't understand - probably the most challenging being why are we here? Despite this, I find it difficult to understand
why some people are able to fill that that vacuum of unknowingness with a religious belief.

However, I respect the right of people to have these beliefs - provided they don't present them as matters of fact rather than matters of faith, don't assume that their faith makes them intellectually or morally superior and don't seek to impose their particular religion on anyone else.

I studied theology many moons ago but find it impossible to be dogmatic about anything except the very basic tenets of Christianity. The thing that stays with me though is coming to see the Bible and the events it records as heilsgeschichte (apologies if spelt incorrectly ): the history of salvation and the gradual revelation of God to his people beginning with Abraham and the Jews and gradually including the Gentiles. Just as you would explain great truths gradually and slowly to young children because they could not understand everything all at once and sometimes fail to understand, so with God's people. The exciting thing about this is that revelation did not end with the closing of the canon of the NT and God (my opinion ) still reveals himself today to those who listen .Goal posts can be moved and biblical concepts can be challenged (the Biblical writers were not puppets ).

This is not a comfortable position to be in and it is much easier to hold the fundamentalist viewpoint but to me the liberal viewpoint is much more acceptable though it can lead to what has been called "the exchange of mutual mystification"

On the personal level I regard myself as a non-church -going Christian (if there is such a thing!) as I have issues with the Church as an institution and I believe that the best form of evangelism is good pastoral care (not sure where that fits in !)

These views seem right to me but I am aware that others feel entirely differently and that is OK so long as there is tolerance on all sides.

On the "many mansions" topic I believe it is a metaphorical way of saying there are many more opportunities beyond the grave to be united with God. After all, many do not have that opportunity on earth due to a variety of reasons .It is a second chance. I am aware that many people might find this viewpoint patronising. If so ,my apologies.