Christianity. In the context of whether belief is actually necessary. Or not.

Anyone seen 'Spartacus'? Tony Curtis, Kirk Douglas, Laurence Olivier, Jean Simmons and a cast of thousands? It ends badly with hundreds of rebels crucified along the Appian Way. Cicero says it happened so it must be so! I don't think RE lessons for littlies stress crucifixion but it's usually there. You have to have Good Friday for Easter to happen. And I don't think anyone would deliberately say that only Jesus was executed in that way. It was a common punishment for dissidents.

who is everyone jingl- maybe most adults now- but certainly not then, when I was a child. And I am pretty sure that my GCs at their CofE school are not told Jesus was cruxified just like lots of other people were then. Honest.

Everyone knows crucifixion was common in those days. Don't see why there shouldn't have been two thieves crucified at the same time. You say yourself PP was exceptionally cruel. (to feetlebaum)

@alex57currie - oh, yes - it sounds like Lennie now I think of it! Thank you...

@Mishap - You are right about that - for some reason atheists seem to know a good deal more about religion than the adherents of said religion!

@granjua "As a child, I was led to believe that Jesus had been crucified- and that he was the only person in the world to have suffered that fate- when in fact (well there were 2 others on the day-"

The 'robbers' are an unlikely addition to the story - crucifixion was not a sentence for theft. In fact thousands of people were crucified - and Pilate was such a merciless cruel man that the Romans called him back to Rome and took away his givernorship. So coming to cosy agreements with the locals was unlikely!

Don't anyone diss "gentle Jesus".

Please do not assume lilygran that those who are agnostic (or atheist) have not looked into what they are choosing not to subscribe to. Many of us have.

gillybob

I agree with thatbags The same laws should always apply no matter what the religion or belief.

I am non-religious (probably atheist) but I am reduced to tears seeing DGC performing their school Nativity at Christmas.

I'm another nonbeliever who visits churches whenever I travel. I popped into the Brompton Oratory a few days ago when I happened to be passing. I am often awestruck by the magnificence of the interiors but, possibly depending on my mood, I can also be irritated by the opulence.

My mother is a Catholic. I attended her church with her in the days following the death of my atheist father. She has always enjoyed the singing of the choir so I asked if they would sing something non religious at my father's humanist funeral service. They obliged and I think my father would have approved.

That is interesting, Lilygran. I was brought up as a "High" Anglican, and thus immersed in the music and the liturgy, both of which I still find extremely moving. I have never quite worked out whether it is just the words and music (to both of which I am very susceptible, given my life's work) or something more. Still thinking...

On another but relevant note, my children (all well into their 40s) and I have a daft occasional game called "Name that hymn" which anyone brought up on the hymn book "Songs of Praise" or, of course, "Ancient and Modern" could play. You either sing a bit of the tune, or recite a few words, then the others finish it. Sounds daft, I know, but I'm very good at it! DH looks on in disbelief - a scientist with a Wee Free upbringing.

That may be the general understanding of Christianity during the Victorian period, feetle but the 19th century was actually a period of extreme change and turmoil. There was the development of the evangelical movement and the start of the Oxford movement in Church of England, the start of the Salvation Army and other outreaching religious groups and, of course, a great deal of Christian-inspired and funded social and political reform. The 'gentle Jesus' is a Sunday School emphasis, nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately (it seems to happen in many faiths) when people drift away or walk away in anger they often do not move on from that level of understanding.

And the "rich man in his castle" etc.

I think much of Christianity as commonly understood is Victorian - certainly the rather dainty 'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild' image comes from that era.

I too am a non-believer who loves churches and cathedrals. Years ago our whole family was in local church choir, as the person running it was a splendid musician and we all (and children in particular) had the opportunity to sing many interesting works. I just joined in the music and ignored the rest. The children had a good social life associated with it - and that was fine. They took in what was going on, asked questions, made up their own minds. Spotted the good things and the bad - the fervent christian who treated his wife cruelly was not lost on them.

I usually go to the cathedral carol service each year and enjoy the wonderful singing as a start to Christmas - I shut my ears to the garbage about women being responsible for all the world's ills which is the the reading that starts the thing off.

Am also one of those non believers who loves Churches- from the majestic at Ely, Lincoln, Durham and so many more- to the amazing in its small perfection at Southwell, but also the tiny and very simple Churches all over the country- sometimes hidden well away from current villages (as in East Leics where so many villages were lost, but the Church remains). And the great big Saxon 'barn' at Brixworth- I could go on, I have so many favourites. And we live next to a lovely Church here (our house used to be the Vicarage since 1587)- but I am always very aware of the huge sacrifices made to build those Churches, to the detriment of the 'poor' and also the physical sacrifice of many in their building.

Which is why I always winked at the Lincoln Imp- put there by a non-believeing mason as a 'rude' gesture to the established Church that paid them and treated them poorly ;)

Many hymns are Victorian in origin and reflect the morals and attitudes of the time, some good some bad as we would see it today. Darn good tunes though!

Again, maybe it is just me- but as much as I love music, and singing- those traditional funeral songs, and other Church songs always made me feel 'my word- what on earth does THAT mean' (or in short, and I am sorry if it offends, but it the way it feels 'what a load of drivel').

My parents were Christians and brought us up in what I now feel was a liberal Christian tradition. My mother, in particular, was a free thinker who encouraged us to question both faith and politics, whilst taking a bit of a pick n mix approach to Christianity, adding bits of Budhism where it suited her approach to life.

I agree with jingle about the beauty of the music, language and art associated with the Christian faith. The art and architecture associated with the Muslim faith are equally impressive. Recent years have meant I've attended more funerals than I'd have liked. The humanist services have been excellent but I've missed the language of the Christian funerals and longed to sing one of the hymns traditionally associated with funerals.
The Sunday Assembly is a response to the need many people have to be part of something meaningful. It is non faith but meetings are held on Sundays and its popularity seems to be growing.

Yes jing we live in a Christian country - or at least one with a Christian culture, and so can appreciate the beauty of so much of the Christian tradition. I for one like the marking of the passage of the year.

Of course much of our law is based on this culture and most of the population in the UK like it that way.
I am not convinced that Sharia law or Jewish Law practiced by some in the UK should be enshrined in our Law.

i would take issue with the statements that Christians are "meeker and milder", Nonu! They are supposed to be, but have been as violent in their history as any other sect. However , this is not the topic here.- it has been, and is being, widely discussed on other threads. So, to return to the OP:

I agree with you, granjura about "cultural Christianity". The myths (yes, I know not everyone will few the Bible as myth, but I do) imagery, music, narrative and especially language of this particular religion are embedded in our culture - what jingl so rightly calls "the sheer beauty".

I frequently found that, in order to teach literature, one needed to ensure that the students could understand the references to Christian stories as well as those in the Greek myths and legends, because they were part of every writer's culture in earlier times, and infused their works.

There is a middle and totally fair way, jura; it's called secularism. The same laws for all whatever their beliefs.

Non-belief in an organised religion doesn't create a "vacuum". Just because people are not religious doesn't mean that they are amoral. Many people who have no religious beliefs think very deeply about moral and ethical issues and try to live their lives without harming others.

Of course, probably just as many do not - but that can apply to religious people also who just "go with the flow" and don't really examine in any depth what they believe in or think about how it should influence their lives.

Nature abhors a vacuum...

Agree- but is it a good idea, as jingl seems to say, to 'pretend' to be Christians, even without belief- to stop sharia law?

Isn't there a middle way possible?