Christianity. In the context of whether belief is actually necessary. Or not.

I don't know enough about other religions to reply to your last question jings but yes all the things you mention are beautiful.

In a word, no. It's one failing [which isn't really a failing] is that it's far too sensible and forgiving [and doesn't indoctrinate people from an early age].

Some of the imagery in the bible is indeed moving and this is why so much beautiful music and art has been inspired by it. I have spent large chunks of my life singing requiems and other such music and my life would have been poorer without it.

However I do not find the concept of the crucifixion or anything surrounding it beautiful and think that this should not be foisted on children in school as it is grotesque. I am always puzzled by the cross as the ubiquitous christian symbol - if the story were to be repeated today then generations to come would have an electric chair or a hypodermic needle as a uniting symbol. Bizarre!

Is belief actually necessary? - necessary for what would be the question I guess. There is of course the quote (from whom) that if god did not exist it would be necessary to invent him.

Tegan, anglicans may not 'indoctrinate' from a very young age- to the same extent as other faiths- But Anglican children are taught about Jesus and lots of other parables and stories from a very young age, are they not? I certainly was. And of course, some Christian groups do so to a much larger extent, the Catholic Church does, and other smaller Churches, evangelical and all sorts of sects- what about Creationists who teach the children a totally 'invalid' history of the world?

Yes, a lot of beauty in the buildings, the music- and the love given to 'one's' own, but not necessarily to others who do not belong, in reality. I certainly remember the segregation between Catholics and Protestants where I grew up. It was not beautiful, I can assure you. Perhaps these images of beauty are 'easier' to believe in if you come from a unique Church community, where unhealthy and nasty competition prevailed.

This Sunday, our local Church will again have a ecumenical service for all Christians and denominations in the area. Great.

For me, the beauty, music, etc, because of the conflict between Churches here, and in our community and family (mother Protestant, father Catholic) + also the influence of the Salvation Army (who organised activities for kids during the holidays- then tried to gain our soul, via beauty, music and stories) and the Jehovah's witnesses- made be suspicious from a very early age- and I felt the music, beauty, the stories- were there to 'trap' me into one group or other. Glad I abstained ;)

My GC go to "messy church" once a month in the local village church. They pay their dues, eat the grub, have some fun and trot off home. There is no religious hard sell as far as I can discern, just an underlying assumption that god exists.

DGS aged 5 asked afterwards "What is all this god stuff?" and my DD explained. He scratched his head for a bit and said "Naah - I don't think so." Out of the mouths of babes.

LOL- our grand-children go to a CofE school, which is quite traditional. We were staying with them late November/early December, and it was very hard to cope with all the Christmas stuff and questions, and keep a straight face too (aged 5 and 8). Children in Catholic schools are taught about religion from a very young age, with of course first communion being full of difficult religious concepts, confession of sins, etc.

Oh I do wish there were no Church schools of any kind in England!

The Jain and Hindu religions include a lot of beautiful parables, dances, colours, music , too- much more perhaps. Diwali, the festival of light, Navrati, the festival of dance, and others for colours, etc.

DGC goes to a Catholic school and I shall be interested to hear his take on it all when I see him later in the year.

Certain neighbours would not befriend my Mother because she was a Catholic who had married a Protestant. No problems at all within our families however one particular neighbour 'reported' my Mother to her priest. This complete stranger appeared at our door, I was approx 8yrs old when this man proceeded to tell my Mother, who I was standing beside, that in the eyes of God she was not legally married and I was a bastard! All in the name of God of course.

I have my own thoughts about religion but unlike the priest, I do not wish to offend anyone.

While I agree that such as the Mozart Requiem are sublime, I would say that art and music are/were produced by professionals, to order, and the Church was a very rich patron indeed... Those same creators would have produced beautiful work whoever and whatever they were working for - the inspiration was the fee, not necessarily the religion. Many people insist n giving religion the credit - t'aint necessarily so!

Which is not, of course, to say that many medieval artists were no believers - of course they were - it was almost illegal not to be.

I was eight when I started to worry abut the impossibility of the stories I was being fed... and only when a young man (by name one Barry Took) pointed out the non-existence of a deity to me did the problems all resolve themselves!

I agree, beautiful.

Of course, it would be possible to also come up with a list of ugly things associated with the Bible and Christianity.

@Mishap - The cross is bit of a late-comer as a Christian symbol - for several centuries the fish filled that need (and it also had links with the use of female genitalia as a symbol).

I can't remember who suggested it, but if the execution had taken place say in the 20th Century, would the devout have little electric chairs on chains around their necks?

It was me who suggested it feetlebaum.!

Was it!? I was thinking at least five years ago...! Oh - well... well done, that woman!

As a child, I was led to believe that Jesus had been crucified- and that he was the only person in the world to have suffered that fate- when in fact (well there were 2 others on the day- but that was never shown to us) it was horrificly quite common place.

Surely it's possible to appreciate and be moved by the beautiful music, architecture, paintings, poetry and literature
that Christianity has inspired without being a Christian?

As others have said, there are some truly cruel and distressing images and thoughts linked to Christianity as well which I do not find inspirational or morally uplifting.

I'm not very familiar with other religions, but I expect the same could be said of them also.

As said, and perhaps it is just me because of the conflict caused by religion in my young life (we were very happy as a family, but the tensions this caused with both wider families were palpable and painful)-
but I had a cynical reaction to the beauty of it all- the music that made you want to cry it was so beautiful, the buildings, the stories- as all that beatuy seemed to be 'sectarian' - eg people were wonderful to each other- as long as they belonged to the same group. Belonging always seemed to mean 'excluding others'- children of immigrants or foreign workers, refugees from Hungary, poor kids hosted after Fréjus disaster, gipsies living here temporarily, circus children.

Also when a gipsy child died in an accident (run over by car)- the comments made by 'so-called' religious people from all sides made me feel sick, even when quite young. And then asking the Vicar why a friend had suffered terribly and died after a long illness, or children who died of war and famine in Africa- it always seemed so wrong that we prayed for ourselves, as if we deserved better, somehow. Perhaps just me, it totally put me off. And talking about WW2- and about the experiences of OH in Apartheid torn South Africa. The vitriolic hatred of the Dutch Reformed Church for those of other faiths via the Afrikaans.

Mind you, our family is now spread among so many different faiths, so many Christian denominations- and others too- and none. Perhaps faith is easier to come too if the path is not challenged by diversity.

feetlebaum it was the French singer Serge Gainsbourg (he of J'taime moi non plus) fame who made that statement.

I didn't know that or hear it! Honest guv! It came out of my head too.

Just popped back to correct myself. It was the comedian Lenny Bruce. Sorry.

So, what do you think Jesus did that would have warranted the electric chair these days?

If the politicians had it in for him, they'd have found a way of getting rid of him. Probably not so obvious as the electric chair - I'd suspect a long process of discreditation, then linking him firmly with a terrorist movement, then getting him assassinated in a spectacular way...

No. I think a cult would have formed round him. And........the Christian religion would have been 2000 years younger!

I've met vicars with no belief, for these it was a career choice.

I read a very interesting novel about a vicar who lost his faith and his parishioners said he was a better vicar for it!