On a currently godless note...

Exactly - you use reason to assess the possibilities. Then if you're me you get it all wrong, but - hey - that's how the biscuit disintegrates.

petallus - you are quite right, not wanting to use reason to deprive someone of their faith. What you want is for THEM to use reason, and abandon it!

I don't think belief in a partner's or friend's loyalty is based on faith alone. i think it is based on knowledge of the person, how they behave, the principles they (try to) hold to and so on. Basing one's judgment on that sort of thing is called knowing a person. Faith doesn't come into it imo.

I wouldn't want to use reason to deprive people of their faith!

Anyway, what about faith in things other than religion, say in a partner's loyalty and love and that it will last? I once did a course in 'risk' and remember how it was shown that logically a person cannot promise to love another for ever, or even a year!

On the basis of only a little consideration I've formed the view that thrashing about looking for God is like trying to see your way round a coal mine with only a candle to help you, and just as dangerous. Recent advances in science confirm the smallness and bigness of everything around us and that space, time and matter are all the same thing anyway. Heavy stuff that but perhaps God is hiding in there somewhere waiting to pounce on the unwary. In the meantime I think its probably best to hedge one's bets and keep an open mind.

Martin Luther (not Mr Nice Guy in my opinion) said:

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

I don't know about reason being a whore, but I think he was right that it is the greatest enemy of faith - and rightly so.

And Mishap!

Just caught up with this thread jingl!

"crun While your analogy seems logical, it doesn't take into account that no one can be indifferent to Marmite."

I'd forgotten the advertising slogan when I chose Marmite for the example.

I wouldn't count your chickens on that one soon!

just clocked...

I have clocked the title of this thread. "currently godless"

Does this mean that Bags is actually open to conversion?!!!

soon! Here's your chance!

Doesn't it all depend on how literally one interprets or uses the word believe?

As in 'I won't say no to a piece of cake'

I agree that no-one can be indifferent to Marmite, although I am indifferent to Vegemite.

I see the difference in bags's post although after thinking about it I need a piece of cake, as opposed to I would like a piece of cake.

crun While your analogy seems logical, it doesn't take into account that no one can be indifferent to Marmite.

crun your last sentence makes me think of people who say "I won't say no". Always makes me laugh.

Here's another one for you in a similar vein:

"I don't like Marmite"
"I dislike Marmite"

The former is usually presumed to mean the latter, but they're not the same, one leaves room for indifference, the other doesn't.

The interesting thing is that if I were to say "I don't dislike Marmite", indifference would tend to be presumed.

Otherwise you would use 'think' instead.

The God you do not believe in does not exist.

That's why I find it annoying when these things - ^ ^ - are used to show a poster is quoting someone else. Italics are meant to show emphasis.

In the first instance, you are simply mnaking a statement about your belief. In the second instance, with the emphasis shown, you are extending the meaning of your statement.

Ah yes Elegran! But that should be written like this: "I don't believe God exists*. The emphasis on the believe makes all the difference.

Yes, I did find that I was arguing against myself eventually as I read it.

I think maybe it was over-explained.

It's not a difficult concept if you stick to the first sentence.

I believe that I believe that God doesn't exist.

(However if anyone is willing to prove otherwise in words of no more than three syllables and in only one sentence I am willing to listen)

I read what Bags wrote and it made perfect sense to me. I think the second sentence leaves more room for doubt. However I can see that many people can read a sentence in an entirely different way from me. If they did not, there would not be so many arguments on forums.