On a currently godless note...

Night night Bags. Have a good sleep. x

Night night. God bless (even if .......)

Bit late to start working that out, bags.

I can see the difference in degree between the two statements, Bags, but I don't accept your interpretation that the second does not leave room for belief in the light of new evidence. Use of the word belief carries inevitably the possibility of ceasing to believe. "I don't believe the bus will come", and "I believe the bus won't come", convey different degrees of faith in the local transport service, but if the bus actually turns up the belief will be shattered however it has been expressed.

Hmm. Good point, grumps. Glad you see the difference though.

Thanks, jings, I slept well

Bloody hell!

Very , bailing out.....

grumppa has expressed it much better than I could. I can see your point but the belief can change.

Right. Firstly, the god/gods thing is confusing and totally superfluous to the argument. So:-

I don't believe God exists.
(ie at the moment of making that statement you do not believe God exists)

I believe God doesn't exist.
(ie at the moment of making that statement (same moment as before) you do believe God does not exist)

They mean exactly the same. Because there are no grey areas. Either he does or does not exist. At that moment.

This should be Pedants' corner.

But Jings - what about all those gods you don't believe in? The ones the commandment warns against putting first? As has so often been said, the only difference between you and me is that I do not believe in one more god than you...

"I don't believe God exists." = I am NOT convinced that he exists = It may be true, but I am not 100% sure.

"I believe God doesn't exist". = I AM convinced that he does not exist = I am 100% sure that he does NOT exist.

A subtle difference, but there is a difference.

But if you want to get really tied up, you could go into double negatives with "I don't believe that God doesn't exist" .

Really!!

I'm the one in the back row gazing out of the window!

A bit like the difference between and agnostic and an atheist?

I believe that I believe that God doesn't exist.

(However if anyone is willing to prove otherwise in words of no more than three syllables and in only one sentence I am willing to listen)

I read what Bags wrote and it made perfect sense to me. I think the second sentence leaves more room for doubt. However I can see that many people can read a sentence in an entirely different way from me. If they did not, there would not be so many arguments on forums.

It's not a difficult concept if you stick to the first sentence.

I think maybe it was over-explained.

Yes, I did find that I was arguing against myself eventually as I read it.

Ah yes Elegran! But that should be written like this: "I don't believe God exists*. The emphasis on the believe makes all the difference.

In the first instance, you are simply mnaking a statement about your belief. In the second instance, with the emphasis shown, you are extending the meaning of your statement.

That's why I find it annoying when these things - ^ ^ - are used to show a poster is quoting someone else. Italics are meant to show emphasis.

The God you do not believe in does not exist.

Otherwise you would use 'think' instead.